IrresistibleB1tch said:

Well, he writes for ROLLING STONE!!!!!
I can't find a few of my sources but one is a British nursing organization protesting about the wait times for patients. (I'm not punching in the same key words.) I'll keep working at it.....

ufoclub said:

exactly. which makes it inferior to other systems immediately because the unemployed are often the ones who need care the most. it's reflective of a less compassionate system in general.

WillyWonka said:

you're not seriously asking this question, are you?

and you're not seriously calling Loder a "journalist", are you?

xplnyrslf said:

I still find that to be the lesser of two evils.

Americans are now spending money to fly to Thailand to have surgery performed because it is a fraction of the cost in the US, and the service is superior.
Though this is more an indication of the strong US dollar vs. Thai Baht as they're basically getting luxury service at rock bottom prices, rather than taking advantage of socialized health care.

But, for me, I absolutely dread going to the hospital becuase of the bad service, the misery of the entire process, and all the hidden fees the despite the fact that I have more health care coverage than Liz Taylor has ex-husbands.

I'm not saying that the systems abroad are perfect. Certainly there's room for improvement, but when we pay more than any other country in the world for health care and have the fewest per capita covered..that's serious problem.

Also, though Moore doesn't cover the whole range of topics, as he DOES keep the psuedo-documentaries narrowly focused to meet his objectives, so far fact checks have not revealed any glaring false facts.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/H...index.html


But again, it doesn't matter to me that he breaks down every angle or side of the issue, nor that he is dead on....what I appreciate is that he is forcing the issue into the light, when it should have been there to begin with.

IrresistibleB1tch said:

There's really no need for the sarcasm.

Yes, I am seriously asking this question. Did you consider Michael Moore an expert on healthcare before this film?

As for Loder, what he does fits under the technical definition of 'journalist', so that is how I refered to him.

WillyWonka said:

ok, fair enough.

yes, i consider MM more of an expert on healthcare, based on his previous exposes on the topic.

maybe i haven't followed Loder's career properly, but he just doesn't strike me as an authority on the issue.

Imago said:

totally agree.

.
[Edited 6/30/07 17:37pm]

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba460/

Moore's statistics on uninsured Americans doesn't cover the # who have insurance available and choose to not use it. I have worked with several professional co-workers who don't want the deductable from their paychecks. They would rather take the risk of everyone in their family being healthy, including children. There's also the # of young, healthy, Americans who don't feel the need to have insurance, although it's cheaper for them.
You can't ignore the fact that some without insurance are irresponsible. It's a choice.

IrresistibleB1tch said:

Moore is no authority on health care. He presents a positive view of government provided insurance in some foreign countries, (the size of the state of Texas, or smaller), and NO downsides, which exist. He depicts all negative aspects of health care in the US, despite the fact our health care industry is one of the best.
The Sauds?? Guess where, with all the $$$ in the world, they go for treatment?? Not France. Not Canada. Nor Great Britain. Here.
Where I work, no one gets turned away, including the "in labor, here shopping for baby clothes" foreign national.
I know individuals who keep their work hours low, so they can qualify for welfare and gov't paid health care.
Everyone gets the same quality treatment.
In some European countries, with nationalized health care, the wealthy have supplemental insurance and better, quicker, care. Canada the exception.
Moore doesn't present the other side of the story. He has a slanted view of it all.

xplnyrslf, have you seen the movie?

xplnyrslf said:

I know people, some of them orgers who opt out of these plans so they can make their mortgage payments.

SSDD said:

Do you, or do you not, want to sleep with me?

WillyWonka said:

cnn.com states that his statistics are pretty much accurate. Go see the movie and then let me know what you think. I understand that his views are one-sided, but they are still one side of the argument.

xplnyrslf said:

I'm sad that you're arguing the other side of the coin, but also glad that you are. Does that make sense?

xplnyrslf said:

information on the "national center for policy analysis": http://www.sourcewatch.or...y_Analysis

Consumer Driven Health Care
NCPA "provided the intellectual justification and rationale for individual self-insurance. Between the time the NCPA task force was formed in 1990 and Health Savings Accounts became a reality in 2004, NCPA scholars made more than 250 presentations — speeches, briefings, testimonies, etc. — in virtually every state."

the fact that some have to choose between a living wage and health insurance is really an argument FOR universal healthcare. and nobody argues that, for the right amount of money (your point about the Saudis), excellent care can be had here, same as in any country.

oh, and this "foreign national" will keep her mouth shut about the comment you had about your "in labor, here shopping for baby clothes" comment.

In France, health insurance is a branch of the Social Security system. It is funded by workers’ salaries (60 percent of the fund), by indirect taxes on alcohol and tobacco and by direct contribution paid by all revenue proportional to income, including retirement pensions and capital revenues. On the surface, it appears that health insurance reimburses medical care providers less in France than in other European countries. However, more than 80 percent of French people have supplemental insurance, often provided by their employers. The poorest have free universal healthcare, which is financed by taxes. Additionally, the treatment costs for those who suffer from long-term illnesses are completely reimbursed
http://www.ambafrance-us....health.asp

“Meanwhile, the national insurance system has been running deficits since 1985. It currently stands at 13.5 billion.”
http://online.wsj.com/art...lenews_wsj

My point is, universal health care is NOT FREE. The term "free" is used during the movie 10+ times: by patients, employees, and emphasized by Michael Moore.

Lammastide said:

I did. One thing that stood out, was the lack of dates on the medical history given by individuals.
And NO there will be no rebutals by anyone in the medical or insurance industry. It's called "right to privacy". Absolutely nothing can be said about an individual's care unless court ordered.
Therefore, those in this film can say anything, without a defense from those accused.. For all patients who choose to go public, in front of a camera, for a film such as this, a release should be signed for that part of their medical record that applies to the described circumstance.
That way, there's the facts to prove reasonable treatment was denied....

I could spend weeks describing the other side of the bedrail.
FYI:anyone who chooses to go AWOL from a hospital because you can't have a cigarrette, or the etoh level is dropping.....insurance won't pay your bill. If you want to stitch your knee up at home, fine....just don't whine to Michael Moore about it. And personnel can't force anyone to stay. Unlawful restraint...
[Edited 7/1/07 15:58pm]

IrresistibleB1tch said:

It's not simply a comment, it's a fact. My hometown is an hour's drive from the border. What raises eybrows, is the requests for the "baby car seat" to drive home, the free diapers, formula, and gift package that's given out after the delivery.

[Edited 7/1/07 15:28pm]

Kinda like being a victim of racism. You can relate a lot better once it's happened to you. Sicko is a movie everyone should see and discuss.

xplnyrslf said:

why does that raise eyebrows? do you have car seats? do you have the gift packages? if you have the stuff to give away, what difference does it make what nationality the baby's parents are?

Just wondering, NO OFFENCE TO ANYONE, but did any republicans enjoy this film? I'm not really librel or conservative, but I want to see it because I agree with the most opposite things and I'm not even in the middle Lol. Thanks!

IrresistibleB1tch said:

It would have been given, WITHOUT ASKING.
American citizens don't request "freebees". It's an indication of being taken advantage of, and Mexican citizens who know the system.

Lammastide said:

Awww, thanks!

luv4u said:

Forgot him too.

xplnyrslf said:

who exactly is being taken advantage of? the corporations that provide the freebies?

and i beg to differ about US citizens not requesting freebies.

I'm not defending insurance companies. There's plenty of improvement
that needs to be made.
This film is a Michael Moore production, and don't think he isn't making mega $$, from the sensationalism.
He fails to mention the French national insurance system deficit, that's existed since 1985. Currently at 13.5 billion. Somewhere, the 6 month time off for a healthy looking 30 something with the Abercombie and Fitch tee: the post child-birth gov't paid nanny, day care, laundry, etc. the home doctor visits. How's the debt going to be paid for? If it's a perfect system, there needs to be an answer. (more taxes)
The concept US physicians fear universal insurance because they're geared towards $$? (From the Brit segment). Not the docs I work with. They love what they do, and it's a cold day in hell most people would stay up all night for their jobs. Much less doing surgery saving someone's life.
So, no, I disagree with the idea physicians are in it for the $$$. You want to battle the AMA, that's another topic.
In addition, the Brits also get "free" dental care. Has that gone badly, or what?
just a saying....(spooky excluded, as his teeth seem to be ok)
[Edited 7/1/07 18:34pm]

xplnyrslf said:

my mom's a registered nurse, and i just posed that question to her. she said "absolutely."

Does she work in a trauma center?? You couldn't pay me enough to work as hard as the surgeons do here. The Indian Health physicians? Absolutely dedicated. We have a cardiology team specific for that field.
I see personal payback, that's above the paycheck, that exists in a teaching hospital .....this is my experience.
[Edited 7/1/07 18:45pm]

xplnyrslf said:

no, she was telemetry & now works at a detention center. why?

I have no idea if the physicians are in it for the money or not, but I suspect the insurance companies are.


But with About 42.6 million people not insured, it doesn't much matter what the service is like (and I haven't received good service in 7/8 years mind you), there is a serious problem to be addressed.


The week I went to England my sister walked into a clinic and walked out with meds for her son within an hour and paid nothing. She was very happy with the service.