retina said:

oh lawd, breaking convention isn't exactly "sloppy". JR Tolkein didn't exactly follow very many rules when he wrote LOTR. Others may perceive the screenwriting as daring--they threw something in the mix that will be very challenging for them in Season four.

retina said:

I think we should establish two things here...

a) the fact that it's sloppy is simply your own personal opinion. I'm sure you know this but I've seen you say it in repetition like it's a truth.

b) I'm part of 'the audience' and I think what I've seen so far is great. Whether they're moving the date forward to the present day or just introducing the concept of flash forwards from here on out - it more than worked for me in this instance and is the most memorable thing about the whole season. Now if this is something they just drop and forget about for the next 16 episodes then I might start thinking different but at the moment I think it's opened up a great new direction for the show.



Again, worked here for me - and several other posters. Modifying the structure of something mid-stream isn't automatically 'sloppy'. What you might see as a mistake, others will see as new and daring.



That really does sound like a horrible mistake in the making... having time away from the "Island" is one of the things that is keeping this show afloat, imo. Some people might hope for a conventional, conservative, straight forward story but that would end up being horribly dull. A person can stand only so much running around in the jungle before mental motion sickness kicks in. Not to mention that over half the truly interesting mythology aspects of the show is how everyone's lives intersect OFF the island. I think now we're going to see this is as true after the rescue as it was before...
[Edited 5/24/07 22:13pm]

jtfolden said:

Agree with this, especially point a)

Oh man, what a finale!

After those dismal opening episodes of the season, I didn't think that they would recover, but it turned out to be a really good run.

I loved the flash forward and how we were manipulated into misunderstanding what was before our eyes (which is partly what this series is all about from the beginning...it makes "loss" that much more real). I said out loud at one point, "wait, when is this?" because I couldn't place it in the fragmented timeline I knew.

Flashbacks, flashforwards...in this story what, really, is the difference?

At least we know the "ending" won't be some happy-hippy resolution.

I love the way that Ben's authority is unraveling. The more he seemed to be the one person truly in control of the weirdness, the less I liked the show. Don't get me wrong, he's a great character, but he was too much of a Bond villian if you know what I mean. I like the way his omnipotence has been displaced onto Jacob, even if we don't know whether Jacob is real.

I was sad to see Charlie die. And his death was touching for many reasons: first that what he wrote on his hand was not for Claire. That was touching. The note for Claire he wrote already (the best moments in his life etc.) and for him to do it again would be unnecessarily sentimental. Instead, he saves the Lost team. And so his heroism will get back to Claire and she will love him all the more for it.



Secondly, his death was touching because it was real (I could be wrong I guess. lol). In an episode (not to mention a series) in which there were so many pseudo-deaths (Sayid, Bernard, and Jin; Mikhail, Locke, Walter... ) we knew that Charlie was a goner. We knew it even though Desmond had been repeatedly and falsely predicting it for many episodes. We had begun to doubt it would ever happen, but we knew it when we saw it. It was a storytelling challenge to make it believeable, and they did that.

And Hurley & the Bus. Those props are an important part of the story as well.

And Hurley ain't no prop.

Though why does Sawyer suddenly trust Juliet or whatever her name is?

And why didn't Jack (or anyone for that matter) kill Ben?



I don't know what to say about Naomi. Ben is hardly a trustworthy source. But what did he think he was getting from Jack, what advantage did he think he was exploiting when he told him what he told him about her?

And Penny. Man, I'd love to get a look at the books on her shelf...

is the coffin short?

2the9s said:

Jack said that he wanted Ben to see them leave the island, then he would kill him.

jtfolden said:

What we need to establish is that just because you have a high tolerance level for things that don't make sense doesn't mean that they work.



Plenty of fans have been complaining for ages that there are too many flashbacks and justifiably so since they've played out their purpose (see an earlier post of mine). Even though it would serve the show well to drop them altogether they don't have to do that, but they need to cut down on them at the very least. And the horrible mistake in the making would be to introduce flash forwards without motivating why they're there. I don't know why you still cannot understand the difference in having flashbacks motivated as memories and flash forwards that have no motivation within the context of the narrative structure at all. At least not at this point.

retina said:

You really have absolutely no ability to admit you're opinions may differ from those of others equally if not more valid opinions don't you?

I mean, absolutely no ability. It's like the worst thing in the world is to just say... "Ok, I might be wrong."

Calling the technique they used in the finale "sloppy" is your opinion--there is nothing you've presented that would indicate otherwise. How is it sloppy? Why is it sloppy? Because it doesn't conform to something you would want or do yourself?

The show obviously isn't sloppy enough to have you tuning in.

Imago said:

Not sloppy at all. Brilliant. Flashbacks/forwards are essentially the same thing anyway, just scenes that take place out of real time that are essential to the story as a whole. And they brought the mystery from being just about what has happened to the characters in the past, to include what will happen in the next few seasons (with the coffin, who makes it off the island, etc.) Critics and fans have complained all season that the show has no direction, and this flashforward set a mark and established that direction. And it's not an entirely happy ending.

I think it was Ben in the coffin.

And I don't mind that Charlie died, but his death was kind of lame. He have gotten out of that room and closed the door in time, or even have swam out of that porthole.

Loved Sayid breaking dude's neck with his feet. I was disappointed that Bernard squealed.

I think it was Ben in the coffin because Jack knew Ben was the only one who could get him back to the island. And because there was no one else there. Who would be there? Ben was far-removed from the mainland. Plus the fact that the coffin was obviously short and the camera shots seemed to underscore that; they wanted you to notice that the coffin was short with the bird's-eye shots of it.

Xagain said:

was it so short that it had to be a child?

ufoclub said:

No, not that short. Besides, I think Kate wouldn't have been so apathetic if it had been a child.

I think the way the story was presented really gave a hint that it could be Ben. On the island, Jack hates Ben and wants nothing more than to lead them off the island, in the flashforward, he wants nothing more than to get back on the island and maybe in the course of what will happen up to that, he and Ben made up or something.

I may have missed something...but why didn't Sawyer stay behind with Sayid, Jinm, Bernard, and the guns to confront the others when they arrived? He's sure a better shot than Bernard.

Look here for a clue wether or not it might be Ben in the coffin (under Trivia, Newspaper article):


http://lostpedia.com/wiki...king_Glass

jtfolden said:

it'll be one or the other. They did say that the end was very bitter sweet. Obviously something went wrong and Jack wants to go back and fix it (like all things) but even he can't find the island anymore.

by the way the funer home was an anagram for flash forward.

things just got a whole lot more interesting.

Xagain said:

that wasn't him. Probably the smoke monster manifesting itself.

The producers have said Christian is deader than Elvis.

retina said:

Thinking of it as one long story helps.

With the flash forwards they can tell the story in a different way. For me it makes a bit of sense as a lot of the story deals with time.

retina said:

they knew about the flash forward from the beginning. personally I think it adds more mystery. The flashbacks were getting tedious. Now at least the flash forwards will hopefully have more bearing on the story.

jtfolden said:

I agree with all that you said. This does open doors for new type of stroy telling. Except for the flashbacks. They were really running out of steam (though not sure why). But they DO take a lot of time away from the main story line which has LOTS of plots going on (I think this should be a 2 hr show just to fit it all in).

2the9s said:

Bernard was a great shot IMO. I think it was a lack of guns. Plus one of them would have died.

I have been reading Lost message boards pretty much non-stop since I watched it last night on DVR. I have lots to discuss, but fortunately there's a lot of time to discuss it. I was very impressed, though, and I am very excited that the producers have a finite timeframe to play around with for what's left of the story.

superspaceboy said:

Yeah, I know. I was horsin around.
I think the smoke monster is Jacob, as are all the appearances by dead people. I think the grey powder around Jacob's shack is the "smoke."
And yeah, things did get more interesting. I didn't care near as much about this show before the "Jacob" scene freaked me out, and the finale was awesome.

I'm trying to understand how everyone is getting BEN in the coffin? Remember, when Jack read the article out of the paper, he started to cry? Would he shed tears over Ben? Furthermore, whoever it was that died, their death had so much significance that it was one of the factors that caused him to start to commit suicide. Would Ben's death have that much affect on Jack?

retina said:

Does this type of arrogance work for you in real life? ...because it's failing pretty spectacularly and looking rather infantile right here. If it doesn't work for YOU, if it doesn't make sense to YOU then that's your loss and your single opinion. ...and guess what? Your personal opinion doesn't hold any more worth than anyone else's. None whatsoever.

superspaceboy said:

Well, I think the thing about the flashbacks is that even though they may be technically just as effective now as when they started, it still eventually adds up to a whole lot of the same thing. So, while the flashbacks were initially good keeping up interest by providing background info and breaking up the jungle scenery, they're getting to be old hat and need something new themselves - which is where the flash forwards come in... If they go that route then instead of seeing flashbacks detailing events and motivations that are causing the characters to behave a certain, we'll be seeing the repercussions in the present day based on their choices in the past on the Island. Good stuff, imo.

jtfolden said:

You obviously cannot see that this is a matter of tolerance levels rather than opinions. A lot of things don't make sense in Lost but most of it is related to the plot and its mystery and can therefore be tolerable. I, however, don't find it as tolerable if they're going to mess up the logic of the narrative structure too.

And you're the one resorting to personal attacks, so who's the infantile one here?...

jtfolden said:

Again, I agree with all of this. (counting down the seconds before all this shit gets snipped or locked. )

retina said:

It is about a difference in opinions.

But you have still, even after all your rambling, not backed your case up.

Why do things have to make absolutely sense to when it comes to structure. How does this mess things up.

Again, how is it sloppy? You're the only one saying this really. So help us to understand.

I'm gonna watch it now, tomorrow Imma come back here and tell y'all that y'all got it wrong!!!!
[Edited 5/25/07 16:28pm]