I've been thinking about this today...

Are people inherently good? or 'bad'? Or neutral?

If neutral, what makes a person good or bad?

Are actions/deeds or intentions/thoughts more important?

Are people inherently good? or 'bad'? Or neutral?
I think people come good.

If neutral, what makes a person good or bad?

Are actions/deeds or intentions/thoughts more important?
I think intentions are more important. I think people a lot of times MEAN good but it comes out all wrong. This happens to me all the time.

I think some people are good, some are bad, most are just in-between. I agree with SureThing, intentions are definitely more important.

evenstar3 said:

What about people who always have good intentions, but never deliver?

CarrieMpls said:

that sucks, but i still don't think it makes them bad. i'm equating bad & evil here, so i'm not sure if that works.

We did not evolve into the relatively advance species that we are through goodness and kindness, but through necessity. Vanity, power, greed, strength and intelligence along with adaptability , in my opinion, is largely responsible for the chain of events that got ALL of us here. I wouldn’t have been born if not for those factors through out the history of time since my ancestors where swimming in the world’s Oceans.

William Golding wrote Lord of The Flies, one of my favorite books ever where he states a strong case for Man being inherently evil, but smart enough to understand that he has to form social bonds in order to survive. In the story, roughly a dozen or so boys are stranded on a tropical island after what apparently is some type of global war. The boys range from ages 6 to 12, too young to have an understanding of society and the fabric or relationships required to hold it together, but just old enough to survive on the island, which I took to be a representation of the garden of eden. They are surrounded by an abundance of food, yet they eventually choose to hunt boar. The book centers on 3 main characters, Ralph, Jack and Piggy. Piggy represents your liberal left-wing kid, always thinking about the group as a whole, Jack is your right-wing libertarian believing the strongest survive, and don’t get in his way. Ralph of course, represents government—the middle man. In the end, Piggy is killed off, and Ralph is hunted in the woods. The escalating violence and “Bad, immoral” choices the kids make in the book are based on little more than idol vanity, greed, and lacking vision. It was a brilliant book. A great way to look at human nature and society in general.

So I feel people are inherently bad. We learn good, and we understand and appreciate good. And yes, we even have good in us—but it is something that must be cultivated. Else, we are more vicious than pit bulls.


Actions are important to some extent and carry with them karmic results , but the intention behind the action is more important. Being Buddhist, I would not see the killing of a chronically ill patient as an evil act, but one of potential mercy, depending on the circumstance. Also, if a mother kills an intruder in her home to protect her children, who he intended to kill, this to me would not be a necessarily evil act. Sure, these acts are violent, painful, and ultimately unfortunate. But good and evil are not black and white to me.

Also, think about the animals we tend to love the most—cats and dogs. These are carnivores. They must eat meat. In the wild they must kill other animals. Sure, this is a violent, painful process for the victim. But is it evil? How could it be said to be evil if that is what the animal is designed to do? It’s sad, surely. It’s painful, surely. But without the ability to make a moral choice in that matter, it isn’t really evil The cat kills the mouse, because it must feed itself, or its children.

SureThing said:

I think so too but that happens to me as well, my intentions are good but like I was told once by friend, "the path to hell is paved with the best intentions" so I guess your intentions don't really matter.

I think people start out good. Through nature and/or nurture things go awry sometimes.


M

I think people start out good. Through nature and/or nurture things go awry sometimes.


M

CarrieMpls said:

I think most are neutral and try to be the best person they can be.

I can't believe all the hippy loving bullshit here.

People are sick, angry bastards!

Imago said:

shut up! i'm trying to become more positive

Imago said:

Do you think your thoughts on that say as much about yourself as they do the people you're talking about?

evenstar3 said:

Just play NIN's Broken a few times. It's great pick-me-up positive music.

To answer my own questions...

I don't think anyone's inherently good or bad. I think the vast majority of people want to be good, do the right thing. To the point I think there's something 'wrong', potential psychosis for example, when someone truly wants to cause pain or delights in the pain of others.
I think actions are more important than intentions, but that intentions should always be considered.

Imago said:

oh, definitely.

i'm the one without a soul
i'm the one with this big fucking hole
no new tale to tell
twenty-six years on my way to hell
gotta listen to your big time hard line bad luck fist fuck
don't think you're having all the fun
you know me i hate everyone

in this day and age, it's hard to tell anymore.

Imago said:

Do you think the book would have been much different if it were a group of girls rather than boys on the island?

I agree that a cat eating a mouse isn't evil. But we're not cats and dogs, either.

CarrieMpls said:

no.

I could never take another life. At least I dont' think I could.
Also, I want to believe I'm good. I strive to be.

The only thing I would agree with as it pertains to me is that I'm vain.

But I do believe it. I don't want to beleive people are bad, but I do.
I don't want to believe that pain will never cease, but I do. Even as I try to eliminate it when I give to charity, or when I comfort others, I know that it's self-defeating. That pain always comes back. That eventually, we all succumb to it.


And still, I'm a positive person.

Imago said:

Yes, we...I mean they are.

MIGUELGOMEZ said:

CarrieMpls said:

Yes, I do think the book would have been different. If it had been all girls, they'd all start their own private wars, and the reader would be left trying to find out exactly why Mary killed Susette, or why Anna made a pact with Georgina who she loathed the day before, and both took out Kirsten in her sleep, the motivationto all of which would have been a complete mystery.


Yeah, we're not cat and dogs so we have a stronger moral delima to face. Our actions carry more karmic weight than theirs would. But there are still things that we do in which we have no control over. As we live, our bodies are killing all manner of organisms inside of it, through the air we ingest, the water we drink, and the ground we walk on. We kill every day no matter how hard we may try not too--sure it's just germs or little bugs we cant' see. But still, it's a painful death to the subjects we kill. But it isn't necessarily evil. I'm not saying there is no evil, and that there is no good mind you. Just that it's not black and white.

also, we may not be cats and dogs, but I know alot of pussies on this site. Some of them are on this thread!

Imago said:

I'm not sure I agree. But it makes me giggle all the same.

And I agree that pain doesn't always constitute evil or bad. I don't really believe in "evil". Evil makes me think of a force bigger than ourselves and I think people use it as a scapegoat to deny their own culpibility. It's not bigger than us. It is very human and real. But I do believe there are 'rights' and 'wrongs'.

I think designating which to be more important - actions or intentions - can be murky because there are times in life when sincere good intentions are all one is capable of and actions, while concrete and visible and ostensibly showing true "goodness", can sometimes in actuality be rooted in less than "good" motivations.

That said, I believe most people to be inherently good.

Evil is inherent in us all...just as is good, only not in large quantities...
we come out selfish fuckers....we learn to be good little conformists because anti-socialites are marginalized....

for me, its all about deeds and actions because lots of times folks get wrapped around the axle behind intentions, saying and doing things that they know will cause much angst and distress, but since causing such wasn't their "intent" then its all good....fuck that....good or bad, action is a quantifiable result....whereas intent can always be played off as "oops, sorry you took it that way"....

IMHO that is....

I agree with Danup to a certain point. We are mere humans, propelled by hormones and exterior input, like our upbringing.
Thing is, there is no ONE upbringing, there are as many as there are children and often children lack a certain, essential building block of morals to make them 'good'.

You know kids; the bullies, the nerds, the cry-babies. They all learned that somewhere, copied it. Learned that certain behaviour pays off. Gets them things. If you have weak parents, you grow weak kids.

And then there is the hormone thing I talked about. AHDH forms kids. And there are so many ways in which a child is steered from what we DEEM proper.

In the end, we are all animals, we just have more toys. There was a discussion I had just a few days ago, where I and a few friends talked about morals and how we gave them a place in our lives.

Most of us said we would help out Jews, if we had lived here during the German occupation of '40/'45, but I begged to differ. Cuz you do not know. You just don't. People play for safe most times. And I told them I did not know if I would have helped Jews. I would hope I had the courage. But there are so many external factors. No one knows. Every human being is like a whole different universe, with a different set of rules.

HamsterHuey said:

Totally agreed. Everybody is worried about their own first. If we were so good and benevolent, we'd treat gay people here in the US with more respect.
They'd be equal citizens.

WillyWonka said:

Agreed.

CarrieMpls said:

i think people are inherently good, because everyone has the same basic overriding goal - to be loved and/or accepted.

now, where things start to get slippery is when people start deciding who they want to be loved and/or accepted BY, and what they're willing to do and who they're willing to compromise to get that love/acceptance.

and i think intentions are more important than deeds, because deeds are misconstrued all the time, though if 100 people think you did something horrible and nasty and the ONE person you meant to target thought you did something wonderful and selfless, then what does that mean in the big picture? i dunno. maybe the 100 people need to think about their perceptions?

I do believe that moral truths exist and that it's not all just relativist slush, but I also believe that people's souls and life itself are incredibly complex. You can do the right things for the wrong reasons and the wrong things for the right reasons plus what is right in one context might be wrong in another, so powerful labels such as "good" or "evil" are often too narrowly defined to be appropriate when describing people, their actions or intentions.