soulpower said:

What do you really expect? Especially after yesterday. Believe me there is no shortage of Americans willing to criticize America. However, it is the day after the anniversary of a national tragedy and I doubt alot of folks are really in the mood for that particular discussion right now. Not that it's not a worthwhile discussion to have, but maybe not today.

(Somebody go tell Johnny Unitas' widow that he was overrated. See what I mean? Potentially valid point, wrong day.)

That said, I don't quite get what value there is in highlighting that America doesn't always live up to it's ideals. It probably has something to do with the fact that it is populated by humans who are imperfect by nature. I admit the country is FAAAR from perfect. But I've seen some other places and I haven't found utopia yet.

p.s. the 160,000,000+ in debt stat seems a little suspect to me. What kind of debt are we talking about here? Necessities? Well a mortgage could certainly count as necessary debt, but that's not necessarilly a negative thing.

Universaluv said:

I'm proud to say that I am only 2k in debt with credit cards!!!

soulpower said:

So you don't have value when you buy other stuff? I don't see that your stat up above makes that distinction.

Oh and try tell the bank your mortgage (or student loan for that matter) isn't really a "debt". Miss a payment and they will certainly remind you that you are in debt.
[This message was edited Thu Sep 12 13:33:31 PDT 2002 by Universaluv]

i have no debt other than a car payment the rest.. but i have been there and done that with that whole debt continuim, just let it go...u don't need it, the credit card is NOT ur friend...unless the name American Express is attached (and thats the monthly baby)...lil kim said it now live it!!

Universaluv said:

well... there is a difference. if you buy a house, and you dont pay your mortgage, they come and take your house away from you. its considered security. when you ask for a credit the bank will ask you what securities you got. a house will work, a brand new car as well or a collection of monet paintings. howevre, clothes, records, books and stuff wont work.
btw, I never mentioned student loans. I would agree with you on that one.

ScarLett said:

Right on! I sure love my AmEx...

I must say that I find this thread interesting. On the one hand, some statistics have been provided to point out the "bad" in America, and on the other hand, there are those that will defend America and all "her" faults to the point of being insulting.

First let me say that I don't see myself as belonging to any country. God did not create boundaries, man did. I was born and do live in America, and I am proud of the good that those that live here do, just as I am proud to be able to give back to my fellow wo/man through God's good graces. But I am also proud of the good others do in other countries. There is good and bad everywhere folks if you look for it. Having said that, I read the statistics with a deep sadness at how true these statistics feel to me. It's not just in America however that these statistics exist. There are problems the world over. After having read the statistics I tried to picture in my mind individuals that I have met that fit in with the above listed situations (including myself in some areas) and I realize that this list is not a list of statistics, but a list of people and the qualities of their lives.

So we can argue about patriotism, or we can look around us at our neighbors and friends and family and see where these so called "statistics" actually exists within our own lives and decide to do our part in helping to lower the numbers and improve the lives of those around us by learning to love each other as God loves us.

Peace to the people of the world. For we are one world and we each live our life on this Earth to the best of our abilities.

LittleRedCorvette said:

Very nice post.

LittleRedCorvette said:

very well said, LittleRedCorvette. seems like you are one of the very few who understood my true motives.

soulpower said:

I understand that there is a difference, (although foreclosure doesn't necessarilly mean you no longer owe the bank).

I'm just pointing out that the stat up above says:

"160,000,000+ are members of households that are in debt, a sharp increase from the 100 million of less than a decade ago. A majority indicate they have borrowed money not for luxuries but for necessities. Mounting debts threaten a financial crack-up in more and more families."

Now that is just a bare number, tells me nothing about the nature of the debt and how it impacts these households. It certainly draws a conclusion, but as far as I know from the actual stat, 80% of those "in debt" could be financially stable or even well-off. Maybe it's only 8%, but the stat itself tells me nothing.
[This message was edited Thu Sep 12 13:54:56 PDT 2002 by Universaluv]

soulpower said:

It's an old propagandist's trick to present so-called "objective" statistics as hard fact and let them stand in as truth, detached from any personal bias. It's also a trick of bad journalists. Which are you?

Just about everyone on this thread that you felt was attacking you or being "aggressive" was asking you to contextualize your statistics. In other words, they were trying to "debate." You failed time and time again to do this, instead accusing others of being unwilling to debate. Rather, you fell back on the fundamental truth of your statistics.



So, this is something you have experienced before? That Americans (please define what you mean by "Americans") act in a certain way and your little experiment confirmed what you already believed? That Americans are aggressive and "patriotic"? I find it odd that you later agree with LittleRedCorvette's post where, God knows how, she comes up with an actually interesting way of reading your morass of a post by suggesting that:



Your response was:



You are being disingenuous. Your true motive was to show how Americans are aggressive. Your intent was to get people riled up. Your only way out, to maintain your moral high ground, was to agree to a platitude, that we are all the same and why can't we just get along? You make it sound like LRC is agreeing with you when in fact she is not.



Again, you don't invite debate, you fish for people who agree with your platitudes.



Those two things have nothing to do with one another except in your own mind, which is unwilling to see beyond it's narrow strictures...and the party line of z-mag. That's why I called you fundamentalist. You see the world in black and white, good and evil. You shun context. You "argue" illogically. You use history for your own purposes.



They are not. Statistics like this are used all the time by both government agencies and non-profit organizations when attempting to raise funds to help remedy these conditions. Most likely the original source of these statistics is some agency that is actually doing something to make these situations better, not simply hammering together an agenda to show how "aggressive" and "blind" Americans are.



No it's the fact that somebody who claims to be a journalist can write so badly and think so poorly.


edit
[This message was edited Thu Sep 12 14:33:10 PDT 2002 by 2the9s]

Read these:

http://www.faraway-soclos...cans2.html

http://urbanlegends.about...ricans.htm

Yeah, we fuck up a lot, and God knows we have a mountain of problems, but show me one place in the world that doesn't or one place that allows for such free discourse about how we feel about it. We MUST be doing something right.

People from all over the world RISK THIER LIVES for the slightest chance of living here. We can't be all bad.

Hallellujah!!!

9s, you're American aren't U?

gooeythehamster said:

Let me expand on that list a little, if I may:

- The guaranteed right to choose your own religion, or none at all.
- The right to vote, or not to vote at all.
- The right to critcize your leaders, chastise them for their mistakes and to report on them publicly.
- The right to choose your spouse, or to remain single.
- The ability to persue a career of your choice.
- The right to peaceful assembly and protest.
- The ability to choose whether to join the military or not.
- Freedom to come and go as you please; to leave the country or to enter it.

Many countries have not gotten this far.

Let's try it. I've got the time:

Every year in America

- .01% Americans commit suicide.
- .02% attempt suicide; some estimates are higher.
- .01% die from fatal accidents in the home.
- .009% are murdered.
- .003% are wounded by firearms.
- .0014% of these die, including 2,600 children.
- 5% are victims of crimes including assault rape, armed robbery, burglary, larceny, and arson.
- .05% children take guns to school.
- 2.1% people are arrested for all offenses (not including traffic violations).
- .005% die prematurely of alcohol abuse.
- .18% die prematurely from tobacco-related illnesses; 53,000 of these are nonsmokers.
- 2.5% use heroin, crack, speed, PCP, cocaine or some other hard drug on a regular basis.
- 12.1% use marijuana.
- 14.2%, or one out of every six Americans, regularly use emotion controlling medical drugs. The users are mostly women. The pushers are doctors; the suppliers are pharmaceutical companies; the profits are stupendous.
- .8% nonhospitalized persons are given powerful mind-control drugs, sometimes described as "chemical straitjackets."
- 9.61%, or one out of every 10 Americans, seek help from psychiatric, psychotherapeutic, or medical sources for mental and emotional problems, at a cost of over $4 billion annually.
- 2.62% turn to nonmedical services, such as ministers, welfare agencies, and social counselors for help with emotional troubles. In all, some 80,000,000 have sought some kind of psychological counseling in their lifetimes.
- .5% suffer some kind of injury related to treatment at hospitals.
- .77% undergo unnecessary surgical operations; 10,000 of whom die from the surgery.
- .07% die from adverse reactions to all medical treatments, more than are killed by airline and
automobile accidents combined.
- .005% die from overdoses of legal prescription drugs.
- .017% are killed in auto accidents. Yet more cars and highways are being built while funding for safer forms of mass transportation is reduced.
- .69% sustain nonfatal injuries from auto accidents; but 150,000 of these auto injury victims suffer permanent impairments.
- 1.12% children are reportedly subjected to serious neglect or abuse, including physical torture and deliberate starvation.
- .0019% children are killed by parents or grandparents.
- .38% children run away from home, mostly because of abusive treatment, including sexual abuse, from parents and other adults. Of the many sexually abused children among runaways, 83 percent come from white families.
- .35% children, some as young as seven years old, are engaged in child labor in the United States, serving as underpaid farm hands, dishwashers, laundry workers, and domestics for as long as ten hours a day in violation of child labor laws.
- .77% to .154% women are battered. Domestic violence is the single largest cause of injury and second largest cause of death to U.S. women.
- .27% women are raped, one every 45 seconds.
- 1.92% workers are injured on the job; 150,000 of whom suffer permanent work-related disabilities, including maiming, paralysis, impaired vision, damaged hearing, and sterility.

At present:
- 1.96% are behind bars or on probation or parole;
- 1.04% of these are either locked up in county, state or federal prisons or under legal supervision.
- 3.85% people have serious drinking problems; alcoholism is on the rise.
- 1.15% or more suffer cerebral and physical handicaps including paralysis, deafness, blindness, and lesser disabilities. A disproportionate number of them are poor. Many of these disabilities could have been corrected with early treatment or prevented with better living conditions.
- .92% suffer from some variety of seriously incapacitating chronic fatigue syndrome.
- 1.54% or more are without health insurance or protection from catastrophic illness.
- .38% are estimated to have AIDS as of 1996; over 250,000 have died of that disease.
- 1.54% children are growing up with unattended learning disabilities.
- 1.73% + children, or more than half of the 3.46% children on welfare, suffer from malnutrition. Many of these suffer brain damage caused by prenatal and infant malnourishment.
- 15.38% persons, or one of every four women and more than one of every ten men, are estimated to have been sexually molested as children, most often between the ages of 9 and 12, usually by close relatives or family acquaintances. Such abuse almost always extends into their early teens and is a part of their continual memory and not a product of memory retrieval in therapy.
- 4.62% are unemployed; numbers vary with the business cycle. Increasing numbers of the chronically unemployed show signs of stress and emotional depression.
- 2.3% are in "contingent" jobs, or jobs structured to last only temporarily. About 60 percent of these would prefer permanent employment.
- .5.8% or more are part-time or reduced-time "contract" workers who need full-time jobs and who work without benefits.
- 30.77 %$ live on incomes estimated by the U.S. Department of Labor as below a "comfortable adequacy"; 35,000,000 of these live below the poverty level.
- 4.62% of those at poverty's rock bottom suffer from chronic hunger and malnutrition. The majority of the people living at or below the poverty level
- .77% or more are homeless, forced to live on the streets or in makeshift shelters.
- 6.2% are members of households that are in debt, a sharp increase from the 100 million of less than a decade ago. A majority indicate they have borrowed money not for luxuries but for necessities. Mounting debts threaten a financial crack-up in more and more families.

Some of them DO get a little hairy and depressing towards the end there...

In Saudi Arabia 100% of women cannot vote or even drive a car. Now that's shocking.

P.S. I just looked at your Profile soulpower. Please don't tell me you write for the Bild-Zeitung!

If that's anything like the Kronen-Zeitung in Austria -- and from the link I think it is: http://www.bild.t-online.de -- then that shit is a rag!





Hmmmm.
[This message was edited Thu Sep 12 16:50:51 PDT 2002 by 2the9s]

soulpower said:

And of course we know that Europe is perfect. Get a clue dude. You have such a hardon for this issue.
[This message was edited Thu Sep 12 18:39:57 PDT 2002 by SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy]

You really should just let what this guy says go by without comment... he is simply trying to piss you off.

---

"my main goal on the org is to critize the fucked up foreign politics of the US. but hey, I do critizism for a living, you might as well profit from it here."

- from SoulPower's profile

I think the saddest thing about not just America, but the Western world, is that we think we are the good guys, that we are defending "freedom" and "progress". And in a way, we are, but let's not kid ourselves... We got most of the money, suck up most of the resources and protect our economic interests, while the rest of the world has to make do with crumbs and watch us beat our chests as great defenders of freedom and democracy. Meanwhile, we got the nerves to complain that we have so many immigrants. What we are first and foremost doing is ensuring our financial security, and therefore, our economic domination. For instance, we seem more interested in protecting the patents of chemical manufacturers than going all out to medicate millions of African AIDS sufferers. Is that really being evolved and civilized? I doubt it.

Americans are not alone in this, but I have to say that as the only superpower left in the world, the USA has been formidably hypocritical about its real interests and blatantly self-righteous in portraying itself as the great defender of freedom. Let's get real.. The US and the West are really living in a rich gated community, and we're keeping many problems out, including issues that will cost far more lives than terrorism. I don't think we can really claim to have the moral high ground, as great as some of our institutions are.

2the9s said:

Oh man, that is a rag - complete with the page drei girls and everything.

phew... lots to catch up with since I was asleep.

1. I did not post this in order to stir people up, piss
them off, offend, etc. I simply posted numbers which show
how bad america is doing on certain issues. I did not
comment them, I planned to do that in a following debate.
however, 2the9s, whenever sombody started to argue
certain points it came along with personal offense. I did
not point a finger at any one of you, so I expect the
same from you. but it was especially you 2the9s who made
very clear that you did not want to debate with me,
rather you would gargle with ecoli.

2. yes, other countries have issues as well, mine included.
feel free to post them, I will join the debate without
insulting any of you. however, it was my choice to start
this thread, obviously you cant handle it. yes icenine, I
do get a hard on talking about this issue, because right
now your country is about to cause some serious global
trouble.so I do have a right to get worried, dont I?

3. about the BILD... well, it is a tabloid. however, none
of you smartasses criticzing that newspaper are actually
able to read german, so how can you judge that paper?
there is a girl on page one, not three, so one of you is
not even capabale of making a visual distinction. german
tabloids are very different from american ones like the
SUN or the NE, we DONT make up stories, manipulate them,
etc. In fact, we are the most powerful and influential
newspaper in Europe, catering to 12 million readers
daily. politicians consider it the most important source
of their infomation, and by the way, I am chief reporter
for the politics department, I do not write the text for
the page 1 girl, I couldnt care less about her. so much
for your attempt to offend me here or take credibility
away.

4. conclusion: out of more than 100 replies to my original
post about 90 are personal insults from americans. thats
what I was trying to say earlier about agression, 2the9s.
when you criticize a country like mine, france, england
or spain, you will find less negativity in the replies.
people in america are very sensitive about their
nationalism. I remember last year US-editors questioning
the foreign policies of the US administration have been
fired because it was no popular thing to do. so you wanna
disrespect my newspaper??? you are being very hypo-
critical since you live in a country where the media
serves as propaganda for the government (except for
amazingly brilliant papers like the Washington Post or
the NY Times which I consider the best paper in the
world).

5. posts like "look how people live in iraq" dont help.
iraq doesnt claim to be a democratic country. it does not
pretend to be a role model for the world. thanks god.

IceNine said:

ever heard of sarcasm, ice?? I put this in my profile after people like you were pissed because I dared to speak up against your country's politics... well, you started a "devote" thread about George W. Bush recently, didnt ya?

soulpower said:

What I meant was that this picture makes no sense at all to this discussion, but I thought it made a point when it comes to posting threads that ad nothing to a certain discussion.
I am not connecting you with the nazi era. The pic I think was posted becuz of the fact it is easy to blame an entire country on certain facts.
Something you tried to do with lots of numbers and Tommy just did it with one pic.

It is still shocking for me that Americans believe that their country is the only one thats free, the only one with a firm democracy with freedom of speech, religion, etc...and the most laughable of all that it´s god´s choosen country.


Some of you definitely have to travel more.

While I agree the American media is by and large not very aggressive, especially when it comes to questioning the Bush administration on the war on terrorism, there are enouraging signs that the "we've got to stand behind the prez" attitude is starting to melt a little. Case in point, this article from the Star-Telegram, which states that Dick Cheney did business with Saddam when he was CEO of Halliburton.

___
http://www.dfw.com/mld/st...005941.htm

Posted on Thu, Sep. 05, 2002

Dirtied by Iraqi oil

Excuse me: I don't want to be tacky or anything, but hasn't it occurred to anyone in Washington that sending Vice President Dick Cheney out to champion an invasion of Iraq on the grounds that Saddam Hussein is a "murderous dictator" is somewhere between bad taste and flaming hypocrisy?


When Dick Cheney was CEO of the oilfield supply firm Halliburton, the company did $23.8 million in business with Saddam Hussein, the evildoer "prepared to share his weapons of mass destruction with terrorists."


So if Saddam is "the world's worst leader," how come Cheney sold him the equipment to get his dilapidated oil fields up and running so he could afford to build weapons of mass destruction?


In 1998, the United Nations passed a resolution allowing Iraq to buy spare parts for its oilfields, but other sanctions remained in place, and the United States has consistently pressured the United Nations to stop exports of medicine and other needed supplies on the grounds they could have "dual use."


As defense secretary under Bush the Elder, Cheney was in a particularly vulnerable position on the hypocrisy of doing business with Iraq. (Although in 1991, after the Persian Gulf War, Cheney told a group of oil industry executives he was emphatically against trying to topple Saddam.)


Using two subsidiaries, Dresser-Rand and Ingersoll-Dresser, Halliburton helped rebuild Saddam's war-damaged oil fields. The combined value of these contracts for parts and equipment was greater than that of any other American company doing business with Iraq - companies including Schlumberger, Flowserve, Fisher-Rosemount and General Electric. They acted through foreign subsidiaries or associated companies in France, Belgium, Germany, India, Switzerland, Bahrain, Egypt and the Netherlands.


In several cases, it is clear the European companies did no more than loan their names to American firms for the purpose of dealing with Hussein. Iraq then became America's second-largest Middle Eastern oil supplier.


This story was initially reported by the Financial Times of London more than two years ago and has since been more extensively reported in the European press.


When Cheney left Halliburton, he received a $34 million severance package despite the fact that the single biggest deal of his five-year career there, the acquisition of Dresser Industries, turned out to be a huge blunder since the company came saddled with asbestos liability.


Halliburton, America's No. 1 oil-services company, is the nation's fifth-largest military contractor and the biggest non-union employer in the United States.


It employs more than 100,000 workers worldwide and does more than $15 billion a year. Halliburton under Cheney dealt with several brutal dictatorships, including the despicable government of Burma (Myanmar). The company also played questionable roles in Algeria, Angola, Bosnia, Croatia, Haiti, Somalia and Indonesia.


Halliburton also had dealings with Iran and Libya, both on the State Department's list of terrorist states. Halliburton subsidiary Brown & Root, the old Texas construction firm that does much business with the U.S. military, was fined $3.8 million for re-exporting goods to Libya in violation of U.S. sanctions.


If you want to know why the Democrats didn't jump all over this story and make a big deal out of it, it's because - as usual - Democrats are involved in similar dealings. Former CIA Director John Deutsch is on the board of Schlumberger, the second-largest oil services firm after Halliburton, which is also doing business with Iraq through subsidiaries.


Americans have long been aware that corporate money has consistently corrupted domestic policy in favor of corporate interests, and that both parties are in thrall to huge corporate campaign donors.


We are less accustomed to connecting the dots when it comes to foreign policy. But there is no more evidence that corporations pay attention to anything other than profits in their foreign dealings than they do in their domestic deals.


No one is ever going to argue that Saddam Hussein is a good guy, but Dick Cheney is not the right man to make the case against him. I have never understood why the Washington press corps cannot remember anything for longer than 10 minutes, but hearing Cheney denounce Saddam is truly "Give us a break" time.

soulpower said:

1. I have heard of sarcasm and employ it very frequently.

2. "People like me" are not pissed off about anything. I am pretty certain that you have no idea what "people like me" think about any of this. I am a member of the Libertarian Party and if you had even the slightest clue of the Libertarian platform, you would surely understand that I do not think that America is perfect.

3. You obviously do not have a clue about anything that I have ever posted about American politics, as I criticize our politics constantly and function in subversive mode most of the time.

4. Yes, I did start a thread about our president recently. Have you ever heard of irony or sarcasm? I don't think that you are very good at detecting it.

5. If you are really a good journalist, which seems very doubtful from your sweeping generalizations and stereotyping, you should avoid making value judgments and saying things such as "people like you" when referring to someone that you have not interacted with, nor have you done any reasearch on to ascertain what they might actually believe.

6. I don't believe that you were trying to be sarcastic in your profile either. This post was clearly meant to be inflammatory. You more than likely hoped to reinforce your views of Americans as feaux-patriotic cowboys who react with violence and anger at the first sign of an insult to their country or beliefs. The techniques that you are employing are EXACTLY the same techniques that are used by sensationalist American television talk shows such as Jerry Springer. Your comments were not meant to initiate a serious discussion of issues, but were rather meant to incite base reactions from American citizens in order to perpetuate and reinforce your views of Americans. I have used this technique many times, so I know exactly how it is done.

Look, can we get past what the possible intent of this thread was? Can we get past the petty differences of one nation from another? It doesn't matter! What does matter is that each statistic above, whether accurate or close, or even fairly off, does represent a life. I have worked with abused kids, and I feel if anything the above statistic is probably too low. The actual number is neither here nor there. The lives of our fellow man, woman, and child is so much more than a number, than a statistic. And their lives are definitely worth more than proving yourself right and the other wrong.

The facts are: children are being abused every day the world over. Neglect of our children is rising. The abuse and neglect of our elderly is on the rise. Alcohol abuse and drug abuse is a major issue among our youths worldwide, as well as adult usage. Funding for research of illnesses and diseases is being cut to fund the defense. Teachers are paid barely above the poverty level (and they are the ones guiding our youths) while actors/actresses, musicians (superstars), and major atheletes are being paid in millions. The poverty level has risen, unemployment is an issue. Each of the statistics listed above is an issue that needs to be addressed and a cure found for.

As long as we continue to focus on our differences between nations, the people in our nations continue to pay the price with their lives and the quality of their lives. It's time to stop looking at differences and time to begin helping our fellowman. If you want to argue differences, go for it. But it's that type of mentality that says it's okay for even one child to be abused, even one teen to die of a drug overdose, even one person to die from cancer rather than finding the cure. It's time it stopped being about "me" and began being about "we the people". And it's not just Americans that take this attitude, but people the world over. It's time that we stop seeing Americans, Europeans, Asians, etc and started seeing human beings.

I'm sorry but this is a pet peeve of mine. I do what I can to help others and will live the rest of my life doing so. BUT this kind of "me" mentality rankles me because there is a world outside of the one we see, there is the world that we don't see whether because we can't travel or afford to travel, or because we choose to not see it. It's time for people to open their eyes and see their fellow man and not through rose colored glasses either but with their hearts.

So continue on if you choose to. Your choice, but personally I feel that you are selling yourselves short by doing so. There is more to you than what is seen as well. Don't ignore the issues to prove yourself right.

WOW!! This is one of the best discussions I've ever seen on this site! I hope it doesn't turn into a nasty flame war because I'd like for this thread to remain open.

Soulpower...you are one courageous person for starting a thread like this.I may not agree with everything you say,but I applaud you for starting a good,interesting discussion.

CarrieLee...I'M SUPPOSED TO BE YOUR BOYFRIEND!! Are you cheating on me?