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PrintableDexMSR said: Shorty said: turned it "completely" around? "Later in the 1980s, Cleaver became addicted to crack cocaine. In 1992 he was convicted of cocaine possession and burglary. In 1994, after nearly dying in a cocaine-related assault, he kicked his addiction." He died in 1998. Not sure why you hold him in such high regard for helping to found the black panthers when he eventually renounced the black panthers and became a republican. from the little I've read of this man, it seems he did indeed end-up doing good things for "diversity" so all in all, yes it seems he cleaned up his life but....I've yet to read anything that says he had any remorse for any of his rapes and his victims. that's hard to overlook. My point is....are we capable of seeing past a persons "personal" demons to allow the good the person stands for to prevail in accepting them for who they are?? Whap! ONE cannot be MORE shortsighted than this... my God! The "personal demons" you are trying to "see past" are ALL part of "who they are"... And who do you think you are to call people jadded if they cannot "accept them for who they are" (read: close their eyes for an unacceptable deed), simply because they are doing good now? Okay, so they fucked up in the past, they are doing something good now... THAT is who they are. The divine dichotomy of good AND bad within a human being. On judgementday God will be the only one who knows "who this person really is" because God knows this persons heart, thoughts and intentions. You obviously have no idea what life is about. I bet you say "to do good unto others"... Let me tell you my friend: it is the intention behind the action that counts. Who are you to judge people to be jadded. There is only one who judges. So why don't you just tell us what you want us to say, so you can be right and get this thread over with. | |
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DreamCatcher said: DexMSR said: My point is....are we capable of seeing past a persons "personal" demons to allow the good the person stands for to prevail in accepting them for who they are?? Whap! ONE cannot be MORE shortsighted than this... my God! The "personal demons" you are trying to "see past" are ALL part of "who they are"... And who do you think you are to call people jadded if they cannot "accept them for who they are" (read: close their eyes for an unacceptable deed), simply because they are doing good now? Okay, so they fucked up in the past, they are doing something good now... THAT is who they are. The divine dichotomy of good AND bad within a human being. On judgementday God will be the only one who knows "who this person really is" because God knows this persons heart, thoughts and intentions. You obviously have no idea what life is about. I bet you say "to do good unto others"... Let me tell you my friend: it is the intention behind the action that counts. Who are you to judge people to be jadded. There is only one who judges. So why don't you just tell us what you want us to say, so you can be right and get this thread over with. Perfect! So you are telling me that you ACCEPT all people for who they are and what they are to the world? Without judgment? This is the point I am making. So calm down. I am on your side. And if God were to "judge" we wouldn't have free will because to Judge is to act in accordance with some prerequisite law God has set. There are no judges...what you do will surely have its consequences according to universal law...not God's law or expectations. The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. -- Mark Twain.
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DexMSR said: DreamCatcher said: ONE cannot be MORE shortsighted than this... my God! The "personal demons" you are trying to "see past" are ALL part of "who they are"... And who do you think you are to call people jadded if they cannot "accept them for who they are" (read: close their eyes for an unacceptable deed), simply because they are doing good now? Okay, so they fucked up in the past, they are doing something good now... THAT is who they are. The divine dichotomy of good AND bad within a human being. On judgementday God will be the only one who knows "who this person really is" because God knows this persons heart, thoughts and intentions. You obviously have no idea what life is about. I bet you say "to do good unto others"... Let me tell you my friend: it is the intention behind the action that counts. Who are you to judge people to be jadded. There is only one who judges. So why don't you just tell us what you want us to say, so you can be right and get this thread over with. Perfect! So you are telling me that you ACCEPT all people for who they are and what they are to the world? Without judgment? This is the point I am making. So calm down. I am on your side. And if God were to "judge" we wouldn't have free will because to Judge is to act in accordance with some prerequisite law God has set. There are no judges...what you do will surely have its consequences according to universal law...not God's law or expectations. god gives us free will b/c he wants us to CHOOSE to love him and want to please him. he doesn't want mindless robots. but that doesn't absolve us of consequences of our actions. and i don't think i understand how you can say that you're on her side. or maybe it's just that you judged him differently than anyone else on this thread would have, due to the strides he made for the black people as a whole? b/c if you agree with what she said then you have closed your eyes to the horrible deeds he did in the past and the "not-so-exemplary" way he lived the remainder of his life due to some good deeds he did while living "not-so-exemplarily" (is that even a word? "exemplarily"?  )
do you understand what i mean? There is no perfect place
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I think it's interesting and a rather sad eye opener how many of the people responding on this thread have either had direct experience of rape or who have a relation, partner or close friend who's been raped. It's just all too common.
. [Edited 1/26/07 18:41pm] | |
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I find that all discussions that involve crime and morality, eventually lead to metaphysical questions about "free will" (why is the criminal the way he is... nature/nurture) | |
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DexMSR said: DreamCatcher said: ONE cannot be MORE shortsighted than this... my God! The "personal demons" you are trying to "see past" are ALL part of "who they are"... And who do you think you are to call people jadded if they cannot "accept them for who they are" (read: close their eyes for an unacceptable deed), simply because they are doing good now? Okay, so they fucked up in the past, they are doing something good now... THAT is who they are. The divine dichotomy of good AND bad within a human being. On judgementday God will be the only one who knows "who this person really is" because God knows this persons heart, thoughts and intentions. You obviously have no idea what life is about. I bet you say "to do good unto others"... Let me tell you my friend: it is the intention behind the action that counts. Who are you to judge people to be jadded. There is only one who judges. So why don't you just tell us what you want us to say, so you can be right and get this thread over with. Perfect! So you are telling me that you ACCEPT all people for who they are and what they are to the world? Without judgment? This is the point I am making. So calm down. I am on your side. And if God were to "judge" we wouldn't have free will because to Judge is to act in accordance with some prerequisite law God has set. There are no judges...what you do will surely have its consequences according to universal law...not God's law or expectations. Are you referring to "karma" here, when you mention consequences according to universal law? | |
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DexMSR said: DreamCatcher said: ONE cannot be MORE shortsighted than this... my God! The "personal demons" you are trying to "see past" are ALL part of "who they are"... And who do you think you are to call people jadded if they cannot "accept them for who they are" (read: close their eyes for an unacceptable deed), simply because they are doing good now? Okay, so they fucked up in the past, they are doing something good now... THAT is who they are. The divine dichotomy of good AND bad within a human being. On judgementday God will be the only one who knows "who this person really is" because God knows this persons heart, thoughts and intentions. You obviously have no idea what life is about. I bet you say "to do good unto others"... Let me tell you my friend: it is the intention behind the action that counts. Who are you to judge people to be jadded. There is only one who judges. So why don't you just tell us what you want us to say, so you can be right and get this thread over with. Perfect! So you are telling me that you ACCEPT all people for who they are and what they are to the world? Without judgment? This is the point I am making. So calm down. I am on your side. And if God were to "judge" we wouldn't have free will because to Judge is to act in accordance with some prerequisite law God has set. There are no judges...what you do will surely have its consequences according to universal law...not God's law or expectations. You are not on my side. Again: shortsighted. Why? Because you are asking the question "Are we ALL jaded?" Right. Backing it up with a story about how this woman was "jadded" towards you for wearing that shirt. Okay now... aren't YOU jadded for NOT seeing ALL of what this woman is, and thus NOT-ACCEPTING for the views she has, the choices she makes and what she feels is right? This rapist made some poor decisions in his world. Decisions based on his way of thinking. This woman chooses to think differently, yet you are dismissing any of HER thoughts, decisions and thoughts, calling her jadded. Basically it is the pot calling the kettle black, man. And another thing that strikes me as odd when it comes to this tread, is that you seem "oh so accepting of what this person did", yet when people explain their thoughtprocess based on their experiences (RAPE MAN!!! RAPE!!) for which they have not found the strength (yet) to forgive this person (they might never) you dismiss them as well, saying: "I should not have put a subject like a rapist in it!" Again: it is all about each and everyone of our own experiences. I'll back this up with a little test: Imagine this character on your T-shirt to have put his hands on your babysister, or mother. Raping them to no end. Disrespecting the divine creature and soul of this body he devours.... I can hear you thinking. Go ahead "un-jadded Dex" wear the shirt. But next time some1 wishes to express their opinion: by all means: just respect and ACCEPT people for who they are, how they think and be OPEN to anybody's opinion about certain aspects of this school of thought called LIFE. | |
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DexMSR said: And if God were to "judge" we wouldn't have free will because to Judge is to act in accordance with some prerequisite law God has set. There are no judges...what you do will surely have its consequences according to universal law...not God's law or expectations. You are right: we have free will. We have free will to choose to do what it is we want to do. This does not mean that we HAVE to endulge ourselves in EVERYTHING life has to offer. It doesn't mean that having a free will is a licence to kill, simply because we can do it. Are you a parent? I guess not. But then again; you were raised by parents, and I bet your parents taught you about good decisions and bad decisions in life. Just because we live in a world where evil decisions CAN be made by your free will, doesn't mean we can just go ahead and do it. Think about why you are here in life. There are some things your soul chose to learn/heal from. Which things? That differs in each and every one of us. You can tell what your soul has to heal from when someone triggers a certain emotion within you. That person is merely playing a role in your life, according to what your soul said it wanted to heal. That is why it incarnated on this earths-school in the first place. And the things other people trigger in you, are the things your soul wants to heal from. It is up to you to decide wether you are breaking the circle of acting on impulses (often caused my a serious lack of something within the personality, desperately protected by the ego) and thus hit someone, run from confrontations, hide emotionally, develop an addiction to sex, drugs or alcohol so that the soul can be numbed, have an affair (escape a situation rather than confronting and healing it), or do whatever to a person that triggers that emotion. All of that, rather than to go to the core of YOUR being (Yes, that would be your soul) and confront/feel and understand what it is your soul is feeling. It is not the person who triggers the emotion that you have to fight. It is that voice inside (often telling you that you have "free will" to make a wrong right), that is causing you to react to the TRIGGER-ER. That nasty inner voice is the one that you have to fight. That little devil on your left shoulder, that is giving you excuses to act in a selfish way, only because that big ego of yours is hurting. Ego is necessary to speak up, to be assertive, but it is the EMOTION behind it, deep within you...that pain/sadness/hurt, THAT needs to be healed. Listening to that nasty ego-voice is what makes someone shortsighted, bitter and revengeful, because it only judges to excuse your deeds, but feel deep within...and you'll know you were wrong. That is why forgiveness is the only key to freedom. It works both ways. It takes a lot of work to forgive someone, but it IS the only cure to healing your soul, like you were set out to do. And to be forgiven is equally important. Only when you truly feel sorry for what you did. Otherwise, ANY other PERSON (or situation) who seems to trigger that emotion will be your battle in life. Life is within you. The fight is between your soul and your ego (who protects your personality). And so, to get back to the comment you made above, my opinion is: Indeed, we are not to judge. We make our own mistakes as well. It may not be physical rape, but that doesn't make us saints. You can easily rape ones soul by disrespecting someone, talking down on someone, ignoring someone's feelings when you could also be there for your "brother" or "sister" or for example withholding love for someone who you call your lover. That is emotional rape. Any tear you caused, is negative karma you create. Any negative feeling you cause (your role as the one who triggers) is negative karma you create. Especially when actions stem from a selfish (ego) intention or a thought that was fed by the ego. Yes, that nasty ego,... because the soul is always loving. Any feeling you cause in another soul, you will feel (pay off). Maybe not in this life, but you will have to pay off your karma. YOU HAVE FREE WILL TO CHOOSE WETHER YOU CREATE POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE KARMA! (That's your free will right there.) We are not to judge who created negative or positive karma and who didn't. God (Allah, the Universe) is the only one who knows your soul and your heart. That is why it is so important to live with a concious/honest (to your self and your actions) and positive heart. That is why repentance and why forgiveness is oh so important. Forgive yourself, forgive the one who triggered something in you and ask for forgiveness when you cause tears, broke someone's heart or in any other way made a poor decision. Every day you get a new chance to make better decisions. To re-create yourself. To re-member your soul. (to choose to be a member of divine love). So no, I am not jadded. I accept anyone. I accept you too. I am not judging anyone because everybody is on a different level in life's class. I understand you, yet I disagree. You just still have a lot to learn. Which is great! Enjoy the journey. [Edited 1/28/07 0:55am] | |
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DreamCatcher said: DexMSR said: And if God were to "judge" we wouldn't have free will because to Judge is to act in accordance with some prerequisite law God has set. There are no judges...what you do will surely have its consequences according to universal law...not God's law or expectations. You are right: we have free will. We have free will to choose to do what it is we want to do. This does not mean that we HAVE to endulge ourselves in EVERYTHING life has to offer. It doesn't mean that having a free will is a licence to kill, simply because we can do it. Are you a parent? I guess not. But then again; you were raised by parents, and I bet your parents taught you about good decisions and bad decisions in life. Just because we live in a world where evil decisions CAN be made by your free will, doesn't mean we can just go ahead and do it. Think about why you are here in life. There are some things your soul chose to learn/heal from. Which things? That differs in each and every one of us. You can tell what your soul has to heal from when someone triggers a certain emotion within you. That person is merely playing a role in your life, according to what your soul said it wanted to heal. That is why it incarnated on this earths-school in the first place. And the things other people trigger in you, are the things your soul wants to heal from. It is up to you to decide wether you are breaking the circle of acting on impulses (often caused my a serious lack of something within the personality, desperately protected by the ego) and thus hit someone, run from confrontations, hide emotionally, develop an addiction to sex, drugs or alcohol so that the soul can be numbed, have an affair (escape a situation rather than confronting and healing it), or do whatever to a person that triggers that emotion. All of that, rather than to go to the core of YOUR being (Yes, that would be your soul) and confront/feel and understand what it is your soul is feeling. It is not the person who triggers the emotion that you have to fight. It is that voice inside (often telling you that you have "free will" to make a wrong right), that is causing you to react to the TRIGGER-ER. That nasty inner voice is the one that you have to fight. That little devil on your left shoulder, that is giving you excuses to act in a selfish way, only because that big ego of yours is hurting. Ego is necessary to speak up, to be assertive, but it is the EMOTION behind it, deep within you...that pain/sadness/hurt, THAT needs to be healed. Listening to that nasty ego-voice is what makes someone shortsighted, bitter and revengeful, because it only judges to excuse your deeds, but feel deep within...and you'll know you were wrong. That is why forgiveness is the only key to freedom. It works both ways. It takes a lot of work to forgive someone, but it IS the only cure to healing your soul, like you were set out to do. And to be forgiven is equally important. Only when you truly feel sorry for what you did. Otherwise, ANY other PERSON (or situation) who seems to trigger that emotion will be your battle in life. Life is within you. The fight is between your soul and your ego (who protects your personality). And so, to get back to the comment you made above, my opinion is: Indeed, we are not to judge. We make our own mistakes as well. It may not be physical rape, but that doesn't make us saints. You can easily rape ones soul by disrespecting someone, talking down on someone, ignoring someone's feelings when you could also be there for your "brother" or "sister" or for example withholding love for someone who you call your lover. That is emotional rape. Any tear you caused, is negative karma you create. Any negative feeling you cause (your role as the one who triggers) is negative karma you create. Especially when actions stem from a selfish (ego) intention or a thought that was fed by the ego. Yes, that nasty ego,... because the soul is always loving. Any feeling you cause in another soul, you will feel (pay off). Maybe not in this life, but you will have to pay off your karma. YOU HAVE FREE WILL TO CHOOSE WETHER YOU CREATE POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE KARMA! (That's your free will right there.) We are not to judge who created negative or positive karma and who didn't. God (Allah, the Universe) is the only one who knows your soul and your heart. That is why it is so important to live with a concious/honest (to your self and your actions) and positive heart. That is why repentance and why forgiveness is oh so important. Forgive yourself, forgive the one who triggered something in you and ask for forgiveness when you cause tears, broke someone's heart or in any other way made a poor decision. Every day you get a new chance to make better decisions. To re-create yourself. To re-member your soul. (to choose to be a member of divine love). So no, I am not jadded. I accept anyone. I accept you too. I am not judging anyone because everybody is on a different level in life's class. I understand you, yet I disagree. You just still have a lot to learn. Which is great! Enjoy the journey. [Edited 1/28/07 0:55am] I love my journey!! And having free will DOES allow anyone to do just what they feel they want to do...whether that be kill, mame, rape or be a saint! It is all up to what they feel is right for them. Jeffrey Dahmer, Hitler, and all the people we deem as psychotic all acted within these parameters...and the consequences and repercussions played out to them as it should. I am in no position to judge, as is the case with EVERYONE. [Edited 1/29/07 8:34am] The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. -- Mark Twain.
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Janfriend said: Fauxie said: Rape is a hard thing to forgive, but it can be done.
I truly don't understand that I don't either...but, I guess I'm not at that point yet. | |
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DexMSR said: DreamCatcher said: You are right: we have free will. We have free will to choose to do what it is we want to do. This does not mean that we HAVE to endulge ourselves in EVERYTHING life has to offer. It doesn't mean that having a free will is a licence to kill, simply because we can do it. Are you a parent? I guess not. But then again; you were raised by parents, and I bet your parents taught you about good decisions and bad decisions in life. Just because we live in a world where evil decisions CAN be made by your free will, doesn't mean we can just go ahead and do it. Think about why you are here in life. There are some things your soul chose to learn/heal from. Which things? That differs in each and every one of us. You can tell what your soul has to heal from when someone triggers a certain emotion within you. That person is merely playing a role in your life, according to what your soul said it wanted to heal. That is why it incarnated on this earths-school in the first place. And the things other people trigger in you, are the things your soul wants to heal from. It is up to you to decide wether you are breaking the circle of acting on impulses (often caused my a serious lack of something within the personality, desperately protected by the ego) and thus hit someone, run from confrontations, hide emotionally, develop an addiction to sex, drugs or alcohol so that the soul can be numbed, have an affair (escape a situation rather than confronting and healing it), or do whatever to a person that triggers that emotion. All of that, rather than to go to the core of YOUR being (Yes, that would be your soul) and confront/feel and understand what it is your soul is feeling. It is not the person who triggers the emotion that you have to fight. It is that voice inside (often telling you that you have "free will" to make a wrong right), that is causing you to react to the TRIGGER-ER. That nasty inner voice is the one that you have to fight. That little devil on your left shoulder, that is giving you excuses to act in a selfish way, only because that big ego of yours is hurting. Ego is necessary to speak up, to be assertive, but it is the EMOTION behind it, deep within you...that pain/sadness/hurt, THAT needs to be healed. Listening to that nasty ego-voice is what makes someone shortsighted, bitter and revengeful, because it only judges to excuse your deeds, but feel deep within...and you'll know you were wrong. That is why forgiveness is the only key to freedom. It works both ways. It takes a lot of work to forgive someone, but it IS the only cure to healing your soul, like you were set out to do. And to be forgiven is equally important. Only when you truly feel sorry for what you did. Otherwise, ANY other PERSON (or situation) who seems to trigger that emotion will be your battle in life. Life is within you. The fight is between your soul and your ego (who protects your personality). And so, to get back to the comment you made above, my opinion is: Indeed, we are not to judge. We make our own mistakes as well. It may not be physical rape, but that doesn't make us saints. You can easily rape ones soul by disrespecting someone, talking down on someone, ignoring someone's feelings when you could also be there for your "brother" or "sister" or for example withholding love for someone who you call your lover. That is emotional rape. Any tear you caused, is negative karma you create. Any negative feeling you cause (your role as the one who triggers) is negative karma you create. Especially when actions stem from a selfish (ego) intention or a thought that was fed by the ego. Yes, that nasty ego,... because the soul is always loving. Any feeling you cause in another soul, you will feel (pay off). Maybe not in this life, but you will have to pay off your karma. YOU HAVE FREE WILL TO CHOOSE WETHER YOU CREATE POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE KARMA! (That's your free will right there.) We are not to judge who created negative or positive karma and who didn't. God (Allah, the Universe) is the only one who knows your soul and your heart. That is why it is so important to live with a concious/honest (to your self and your actions) and positive heart. That is why repentance and why forgiveness is oh so important. Forgive yourself, forgive the one who triggered something in you and ask for forgiveness when you cause tears, broke someone's heart or in any other way made a poor decision. Every day you get a new chance to make better decisions. To re-create yourself. To re-member your soul. (to choose to be a member of divine love). So no, I am not jadded. I accept anyone. I accept you too. I am not judging anyone because everybody is on a different level in life's class. I understand you, yet I disagree. You just still have a lot to learn. Which is great! Enjoy the journey. [Edited 1/28/07 0:55am] I love my journey!! And having free will DOES allow anyone to do just what they feel they want to do...whether that be kill, mame, rape or be a saint! It is all up to what they feel is right for them. Jeffrey Dahmer, Hitler, and all the people we deem as psychotic all acted within these parameters...and the consequences and repercussions played out to them as it should. I am in no position to judge, as is the case with EVERYONE. [Edited 1/29/07 8:34am] Exactly: We all have free will to create positive or negative karma for ourselves. You reap exactly that, what you sow: multiplied. | |
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yeah. Let's not. [Edited 1/30/07 4:41am] |
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DreamCatcher said: DexMSR said: I love my journey!! And having free will DOES allow anyone to do just what they feel they want to do...whether that be kill, mame, rape or be a saint! It is all up to what they feel is right for them. Jeffrey Dahmer, Hitler, and all the people we deem as psychotic all acted within these parameters...and the consequences and repercussions played out to them as it should. I am in no position to judge, as is the case with EVERYONE. [Edited 1/29/07 8:34am] Exactly: We all have free will to create positive or negative karma for ourselves. You reap exactly that, what you sow: multiplied. Universal Law!....Yes...."CoolCat"...I am referring to Karma brotha...as we both here are.  The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. -- Mark Twain.
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