Janfriend said:

No



perhaps different, no better

Where the fuck do you see me calling this gentlemen my role model? I can't stand when threads get spun so far out of control that the intitial fucking point gets lost! You all can have this thread....do with it what you will.

Jesus Christ!!![/quote]

Dex! I respect your right to wear the t-shirt and would never make a comment if I saw it worn. I personally would not care to wear an Eldridge Cleaver t-shirt.
Sorry.
[Edited 1/24/07 8:05am]

xplnyrslf said:

Never held accountable? He served his time in jail! This is the system we live in right, he has his accountability.

What I am saying in this thread if you all can go up top and read the bold print UNDER the introduction....Can you discount a person's past for all the good he's doing in the world and affecting change and lives in a positive manner??

DexMSR said:

My answer would be:

It totally depends on their "past".

I've forgiven and given second chances to people who have treated me like shit. Some way worse than others. Some of my friends think that I am nuts for doing that...but that doesn't really matter, I guess. I do what works for me, not what works for everyone else.

JustErin said:

I have as well....and people think I am nuts for it as well. I tell folks....Karma will take care of them....and it has!

There has been so much cultural weight included to the concept of rape that it's hard to see what's sensible in most people's reactions anymore. If we were talking about a regular abusive act, say just to beat up someone who'd be seriously physically injured for the rest of his life as a result, everyone's attitude is always quite different. It's almost like sports in that sense, even if you really brutally mauled the other person. But because of the notion of forcing someone to have intercourse with them many are ready to voice comments such as, "emasculate him!" or "death penalty to rapists!" with such anger that it's usually just plain intimidating to witness them. It's almost an intellectual "counter-rape", because they don't allow any voice of reason or deviating opinions to be introduced to the conversation.

And I think people react so strongly usually more out of habit or because of mixed feelings towards their own sexuality. I say this just because people are usually quite nonchalant about other types of violent crimes but even the mention of the word "rape" tends to get them on their toes. Myself included to be honest.

JustErin said:

i think that's what most of us have been saying throughout this whole thread! sorry the discussion of the rape issue clouded your ability to see that Dex.

Wow, we can have presidents of this country own slaves, rape women and yet go down as heroes and great men. Our actors and directors and our favorite musicians rape young girls and do all kinds of treacherous stuff to people yet we support them monetarily. Oh, the hypocrisy of it all.

I forgave my sexually abuser and later in my life, my rapist. I take great comfort and knowing that those people know how successful I went on to be in spite of them.

novabrkr said:

Or maybe, just maybe many people (well, women especially) have been victims of sexual abuse and rape that they know the gravity of having to deal with the result of that crime for the rest of their lives.

I don't think that many people (men especially) realize just how many of their family members and friends have been victims of rape.

I know more women who have faced some type if sexual abuse than not.
[Edited 1/24/07 9:37am]

DexMSR said:

No, I don't see past "it"... whomever it is that has broken the law does NOT get the same level of trust and/or respect from me that someone who has not committed a crime does get from me.

However, I am able to watch and listen to anyone/anything worthwhile.

Stymie said:

JustErin said:

amen, sister. To all of it.

JustErin said:

Def.

I don't know one woman who hasn't had a couple of molesterish rapish encounters.

Stymie said:

Here Fucking Here!!!!

Standing Up!!!

Whap!!!

SureThing said:

SHANNA said:

Ok....what if you didn't KNOW he committed this crime and you fell in love with this person or just have grown to trust this person....DOES IT ALL JUST DIE AND GO AWAY because of a past you didn't know about?

Stymie said:

x a million

Stymie said:

I agree 100% and all of the hypocrisy seems to be made clearer to me everyday. How hard is it just to walk the talk? Impossible it seems.

Now, back to the point of the thread.

I think people have been forgiven for they’re past crimes in a lot of cases. Murder and Rape are a harder pill for people to swallow but history is written by the best Public Relations people and pop culture.

So, with that in mind, I doubt that an African American activist that fought for fundamental equality (even if it meant using guns), and let's say R. Kelly and how popular his music is (even though he's on a video pissing on an under age girl), in twenty-five years who will be remembered for the positive and who will be remembered for the negative? Maybe that's not a fair comparison but my point is popular people are written in history without regards to their faults/past crimes.

It reminds me of the thread started here as to whether Hendrix beat his women and people just didn't care, they just kept saying "his musical influence is all we care about."

History has done this since it's been documented and it's disgusting. Ask the American Indian

SHANNA said:

I really hope that is indeed true.

But remember that many, many, many women keep that to themselves for a number of reasons. Shame and embarassment and not wanting to make others they care about feel their pain being some of the top reasons to suffer in silence.

Slave2daGroove said:

True Indeed!!!

DexMSR said:

The love, no, I would still love him, (Fuck y'all!)...but, honestly...I would probably start to replay every convo we ever had, and yes, if I found reason to, I would doubt him. Not trust him.

I don't like this thread, Dex!

SHANNA said:

Gigglin.....You should LOVE this thread as it is causing you to place your realities under your very own microscope sweety!

Whap!

novabrkr said:

Rape isn't just a single act of violation against one person, it also has repercussions on society in general. If society didn't react strongly to rape then the status of women would be subjegated to a degree that no civilised society could function in. Theres a a wider context and its socially unaceptable for a good reason, besides the heinous nature of it.


....
[Edited 1/24/07 9:58am]

JustErin said:

I hope I'm not reading this right...that many of the women I know and care about have been abused in some way...And, that I don't know about it.

LleeLlee said:

Wait wait wait...that could be said about murderers, serial killers, predators, stalkers, and fucking white collar crime....they are ALL heinous in nature and affect the social fabric and order across the board.

SHANNA said:

Of course your reading it right.

Most chics get sexually abused.

They just do, at one point or another in their life.

SHANNA said:

I am certainly not saying that the have. I am saying that the probability is pretty high that there are people you know that have had to deal with this.

And it's not just women, it's men as well - particularly when they were children.

We live in a sick world.

JustErin said:

You totally ignored what I wrote about the shared nature of all violent crimes, but I guess that goes to illustrate my point. Mind you, it's not just women who are sexually abused. It's quite common i.e. in homosexual subcultures around certain parts of the world. But no, hardly anybody talks about it and it surely hasn't gotten anyone reacting strongly on this thread either.

The emotional reaction is mostly automated for the vast majority of people. It's similar to emotions attached to patriotism, religion and so on - as clinical as it may sound. Strong aggressive emotions stem from the silent understanding of not having much experience on the subject matter (it can be anykind of an experience, that doesn't matter). Victims are not usually outspoken about their frustrations, hardly ever. We often bear other people's pain as stronger within ourselves than the the people who have been subjected to abuse because they've had to integrate all past events into their psyche in able to continue with their lives. Angry reactions to other people's experiences are easy, building a functional persona is harder.

A known modern feminist dogma says that "the rapist has already suffered his punishment before the act of rape itself". Whilst I don't necessarily agree with that, it's important to understand what is behind it.



I guess you're right in that case, I would find that surprising.

Slave2daGroove said:

The NATIVE AMERICAN.

Settlers raped the old and young, the girls AND boys. Women were never the only victims. In my local area alone, gold rush settlers regularly kept young Native boys as sex slaves and most were eventually slaughtered after they were "used up" so roughly that they were unable to walk. And yet the white settlers are hailed as revolutionaries who braved the Wild West.

And Ivy, this thread is about a particular person (or, it started that way). I've only skimmed as I'm at work, but it doesn't appear that anyone here is saying anything remotely racist, or arguing with the proven fact that our predatory "founding fathers" were rapists, cheats, and murderers. It's an incredible pity that their acts of injustice are so hush-hush. That also goes for musicians and other celebrities, old and new, black and white.

Eldridge Cleaver was a rapist-turned-revolutionary. Am I incorrect?

INSATIABLE said: