NDRU said:

Dexy, I can't disagree with this--sure, the man should be commended if he made a positive change for a minority who has been historically raped in many senses of the word.

But forgive or forget that he was a sexual predator at one time? No thanks. I am allowed to commend him for his success and feel awful about his sick crimes simultaneously.

JustErin said:

Not with me. Not when it comes to heinous crimes like murder, rape, child molestation. Some MFer does that to my family, he'll beg me to send him to hell. Let the bastards rot in prison, or better yet, give them the death penalty. IMO, all that Bible stuff about loving one's enemies and forgiveness is a lot of horsesh!t.

I believe the facts need a little more scrutiny:

Eldridge Cleaver was convicted of assault with intent to murder and sent to jail in 1957. While in prison he wrote "Soul On Ice".
In the book he acknowledged raping several white women, which he defended as "an insurrectionary act".
He also admitted that he began his career as a rapist by "practicing on Black girls in the ghetto".
Was incarcerated 1957-1966. I don't see where there were charges or follow up on his self-documented rapes.
In the 1980's had an addiction to crack cocaine.....

If I were you, I'd find another role model.
Source, Wikipedia.....where you can find more on the stellar life of Eldridge Cleaver.
[Edited 1/23/07 18:37pm]

Would you put spousal abuse in the same category, could a man convicted of beating his wife or girlfriend be forgiven for what he's done, assuming that he spent time in prison for his crime, or does he wear that scarlet letter for life? I believe that people can change their lives, but they must take the initiative to prove to their families and friends that they are indeed a new person.

uPtoWnNY said:

Forgiveness is not for the benefit of the person you are forgiving. It's for the person who is doing the forgiving.

JustErin said:

DexMSR said:

I don't quite have the same demons or skeletons in my past...
My good graces are better saved for people who do good things without raping black and white women along the way. Was there ever ..."I'm sorry for the people I hurt"? He doesn't need to because, as a cult figure, facts are ignored.
[Edited 1/23/07 20:42pm]

In the history of the women's rights movement worldwide, women have almost always been encouraged by men to push their fight for equality off to the side in favor of the so-called "larger issue", i.e., national rights, race, politics. Let's take the example of the Irish fight for independence from British rule: both men and women were involved in the republican movement, but during this same timeframe, women were also trying to get some laws changed to allow them to vote, etc. The leaders told the women taht if they wanted to be involved in the republican party, they'd need to focus on that particular issue, not their own petty female agendas.

In other words, seems like you're saying that black women (and naturally men) are supposed to be okay with Eldridge because he helped "their people", rather than enraged that he raped their mothers, sisters and daughters.

Seems like if he wanted to atone for his crimes against women, he'd have tried to do something to help women.

Mach said:

You are sooo better than me

Rape is a hard thing to forgive, but it can be done.

Fauxie said:

Definitely.

Fauxie said:

I truly don't understand that

JustErin said:

Although, I should qualify this and say I'm not sure I personally can forgive it, but I can certainly stop giving my time to being angry about it. I've seen it forgiven though.

...
[Edited 1/23/07 21:46pm]

OMG...I love that book! It is one of my favorite books EVER. I listed it as a book that most changed my life in a thread here the other day. I had to read it for English class in college and my favorite quote of ALL TIME is from chapter 2 (see my profile for the quote). After that course Eldridge Cleaver & Bobby Seale just happened to come to my whitey-whitebread college so I took the book and went to see them. After the speech I took my book up and asked Mr. Cleaver to autograph it.

As I was standing in line so many thoughts were racing through my mind: as a white girl in a different place & time I could have easily been one of his victims, (which by the way, don't forget he points out he practiced on black women to hone his technique....), was I being a hypocrite by asking this man, who hated whites and raped women as revenge against white men, for his autograph; would he refuse to sign my book?

But to address the question, at that time (and knock on wood, even today) I have only known one friend of a friend who was the victim of rape. If someone extremely close to me had been raped then perhaps I would have felt differently towards Mr. Cleaver and been jaded. Honestly, I was kind of disappointed that he went from "Fuck Ronald Reagan" to being a Republican himself.

I think it is possible to look past a person's past actions IF they truly have turned their life around. The trick is knowing if they truly have or if they are only going through the motions, I guess. (I can't remember if it's addressed in the book--did Cleaver ever meet and apologize to his victims?) I know there are things I have said in my past that I am truly sorry about (nothing illegal but very mean and hateful) and I would hate for people to judge me only on the way I was. I think everyone has things they might choose to do differently if given the opportunity. Rape & murder are tougher to look past, though. And I don't know about wearing him on a T-shirt...plus the woman with whom you were speaking has her own backstory--was she black or white, maybe she had a family member or someone close to her was raped...all these things come into play and affect how she feels about Cleaver. (Just look at the responses on this thread.)






Maybe no one cares, but here's what he wrote in my book:

For Joni,
Thank you for this opportunity to sign this book for a beautiful lady. Good luck. Right on!
Eldridge Cleaver 2/23/95

The pages of the book are falling out and all marked up where I have underlined and written on them, and I have the newsclipping that was in the campus paper talking about his and Bobby's visit.
.
[Edited 1/24/07 17:41pm]

xplnyrslf said:

Where the fuck do you see me calling this gentlemen my role model? I can't stand when threads get spun so far out of control that the intitial fucking point gets lost! You all can have this thread....do with it what you will.

Jesus Christ!!!

Mach said:

For me, healing and moving on is when the animal who did the crime is six feet under or spending the rest of his life in solitary confinement.

Fauxie said:

For me, forgiving is letting go of that anger and no longer allowing it to consume you.

Forgiving will never mean forgetting.

Fauxie said:

Forgive it yes... however place trust in the individual or perhaps leave my daughter in the same room alone with them for five minutes? No

I would be glad to hear they turned their life around and became of value to society or themselves. I may even read a book they wrote discussing these life changes perhaps.

Wear a T shirt with them on it? Nope.

JustErin said:

Agreed.

JustErin said:

Entirely necessary, if the toughest of asks, but seems the only real way to overcome it so that it doesn't rule and define your life.

yes.....I am now, and I thank the internet for that

Fauxie said:

Muse2NOPharaoh said:

Good points...I also meant to put in my post that it might be possible to look beyond someone's past "bad deeds", but you shouldn't forget their past.

i can hold a grudge for DECADES (remind me to post that on the flaws thread!)

i forgive but i never EVER forget. ever.

i'm trying to work on these things but it's truly a sisyphean task sometimes :\

jone70 said:

I like what you wrote above...well done.

I had another thought...Eldridge Cleaver isn't getting so much love on this thread--because he was a rapist, right? What about Malcom X? He wasn't the nicest guy either before "finding religion" and even then it's debatable depending on whom you ask. (Yes, I know Malcom was not a rapist, but did go to jail for crime, too.) Is it easier to look past Malcom's crimes because they are not as "serious" and if so, why do you think that is? They are both people who committed crimes and then went on to be very important in the context of the civil rights struggle and black liberation movement.


(Or maybe that question is too P&R for this forum....)

Great read... the thread really made you think.

DexMSR said:

Err, all of that.

I don't even think you're talking about personal demons... you're talking about a person's past.

When a person truly has turned their life around and left the past behind... it's a rare and incredible thing.

JustErin said:

Listen I totally agree with you. If you are the victim or the victim's family, you have to forgive to move on. You HAVE to.

DexMSR said:

I apologize, You did NOT say he was a role model. Wore a T-shirt with his picture and was confounded by the prospect of anyone being offended....And "gentleman" he is not. This thread is not out of control, it's about the facts, and intelligent discourse. You're quickly losing your point., Answer this question.....Did he ever apologize in his reformed life to the women he raped?? Acknowledging one's mistakes is important. Forgiving his actions would require his ASKING for forgiveness...don't diminish the people he permanently damaged. (The statute of limitations would have run out and it would have been safe to do so).

Let me reiterate your view: His benefits superceed his past actions.

My view...he was never held accountable for the rapes he admitted to. Personally nor with the court system. Something failed.
[Edited 1/24/07 0:55am]