We know they hate us. We know they want to kill us. But do we know WHY? I know everyone points to our foreign policy and I can see legitimate gripe in Afghanistan's case. We helped them only so long as they didn't become another communist nation and then when the threat was gone, we dropped em like a hot potato. If anything should be learned from this horrific event (9/11) it's that we cannot act so irresponsibly.

On a political level, what exactly ARE Al Qaeda (Bin Laden's) objectives. Is our foreign policy the only driving force behind their hate? Is it our difference in religious beliefs and cultural identities? Share your thoughts.

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[This message was edited Fri Sep 6 18:48:15 PDT 2002 by SkletonKee]

Everybody we are dealing with now(Bin Laden,Saddam Hussain,etc)was funded and trained by US.Does anybody else find this strange??What's really going on.I can remember Noriega was trained by the U.S and then we had to track him down.What are we doing to make these people turn on us?

theC said:

Perhaps giving them power that they can't handle. It is odd how many people we've helped turned on us first chance they got. I know that a faction of Saudi's hate us, and Bin Laden's anger stems from "infidels" desecrating their "sacred" soil. Most of the hijackers were Saudi's. What amazes me in this instance is that we protected Saudi Arabia from a possible invasion from Iraq during the Gulf War. It seems that is forgotten.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

theC
The question is WHY do they turn on us??Are we doing something that they find out about and get pissed??I can't remember the full story(i will try to find it)but after the U.S aided Bin Laden.We doublecrossed him somehow.That's part of why i heard he HATES the U.S.There are things going on behind closed doors that would make our heads spin.

they are media whores...plain and simple.

why? well, the first major terrorist attacks occured during one of the 1970 Olympics when they highjacked numerous planes. Due to the media blitz to cover the Olympics there was plenty of news sources to cover the attacks first hand.

Many Palistinians have said that this attack was the first time the world looked at their plight. Everyone in the world knows that America is the media center of the world. Plan an attack on America, and your cause will be heard...

I really dont think that the Muslim terrorist have fundamental disagreements with our country. They may disagree with the "commercial" aspect of our society but not enough to attempt to eliminate us. Bin Laden and his *infidel* comments are only an attempt to rile his people into creating media stunts so that their cause can be heard...

and it doesnt help that America is very hypocritical when it comes to foreign policy...couple that with our rather obvious biases in support of Isreal and the Muslim community looks at America as an easy target for attack..(errr, damn them media whores...)



pleasure the edit!!!
[This message was edited Fri Sep 6 19:17:28 PDT 2002 by SkletonKee]

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

bin ladin told me to tell you "Alham darrakah selwaha voosh dalhanan dikshokran!!"

translated in English means "na na na na, u can't catch me!!!

SkletonKee said:

I have no doubt that this is true but I was wondering what their political objectives were whether based on legitimate or purely personal goals by Bin Laden.
[This message was edited Fri Sep 6 19:19:34 PDT 2002 by SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy]

the american goverment is notorious for making deals it has no intentions on honoring...
Or, just can't honor due to changes in administration.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:


Hmm that might be some definition of the word "help" that I'm not familiar with.

Honestly, America doesn't "help" people, it protects its own interests. If that means intefering in delicate political situations, altering the tide of power to suit its needs, stomping all over a pre-stomped people by giving their oppressors weapons and training - then way to go USA!

Examining America's foreign policy over the last 20 years, it really doesn't leave much to figure out as to why there exists groups with a fanatical hatred of America.

And let us not forget that Al Qaeda are lunatics who think that throwing acid in a woman's face is acceptable behaviour. Oh yeah and that killing thousands of innocent civilians will further their political cause. So there is the whole "being as mad as batshit" factor to consider.

I believe they have stated their goals many times. To kill as many Americans and Jews as they can.

2the9s said:

why? what is worng with these americans? and hey, who fuck a jewish girl like you>!

Perhaps this article from last week's New York Times will provide some other useful theories:

9/11 Lesson Plan

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN


The Times just ran an article about the trouble teachers were having in deciding what to tell students on Sept. 11. That's a serious question. This is a moment for moral clarity, and here are the three lessons I would teach:

Lesson #1: Who are they? This lesson would emphasize that while most people in the world are good and decent, there are evil people out there who are not poor, not abused — but envious. These extremists have been raised in societies that have failed to prepare them for modernity, and the most evil among them chose on Sept. 11 to lash out at the symbol of modernity — America. As the Egyptian playwright Ali Salem put it in Time magazine, "Beneath their claims . . . these extremists are pathologically jealous. They feel like dwarfs, which is why they search for towers and all those who tower mightily." Their grievance is rooted in psychology, not politics; their goal is to destroy America, not reform it; they can only be defeated, not negotiated with.

Assigned reading: Larry Miller's Jan. 14, 2002, essay in The Weekly Standard: "Listen carefully: We're good, they're evil, nothing is relative. Say it with me now and free yourselves. You see, folks, saying `We're good' doesn't mean `We're perfect.' Okay? The only perfect being is the bearded guy on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. The plain fact is that our country has, with all our mistakes and blunders, always been and always will be the greatest beacon of freedom, charity, opportunity, and affection in history. If you need proof, open all the borders on Earth and see what happens. In about half a day, the entire world would be a ghost town, and the United States would look like one giant line to see `The Producers.' . . . So here's what I resolve: To never forget our murdered brothers and sisters. To never let the relativists get away with their immoral thinking. After all, no matter what your daughter's political science professor says, we didn't start this."

Lesson #2: Who are we? We Americans are not better than any other people, but the Western democratic system we live by is the best system on earth. Unfortunately, in the Arab-Muslim world, there is no democracy, too few women's rights and too little religious tolerance. It is the values and traditions of freedom embraced by Western civilization, and the absence of those values and traditions in the Arab-Muslim world, that explain the main differences between us.

Assigned reading: "An Autumn of War," by the military historian Victor Davis Hanson: "Our visionaries must be far clearer about the nature of our struggle. In their understandable efforts to say what we are not doing — fighting Islam or provoking Arab peoples — they have failed utterly to voice what we are doing: preserving Western civilization and its uniquely tolerant and human traditions of freedom, consensual government, disinterested inquiry and religious and political tolerance. . . . We must cease the apologetic tone we have developed with the Arab world, and make it clear that their ministers who hector us are not legitimate without elections, their spokesmen are not journalists without a free press, and their intellectuals are not credible without liberty. The right to admonish Americans on questions of morality is not an entitlement, but something earned only through a shared commitment to constitutional government."

Lesson #3: Why do so many foreigners reject the evil perpetrators of 9/11 but still dislike America? It's because, while we have the best system of governance, we are not always at our best in how we act toward the world. Because we want to drive big cars, we support repressive Arab dictators so they will sell us cheap oil. Because our presidents want to get votes, they readily tell the Palestinians how foolishly they are behaving, but they hesitate to tell Israelis how destructive their West Bank settlements are for the future of the Jewish state. Because we want to consume as much energy as we please, we tell the world's people they have to be with us in the war on terrorism but we don't have to be with them in the struggle against global warming and for a greener planet.

The point, class, is that while evil people hate us for who we are, many good people dislike us for what we do. And if we want to win their respect we need to be the best, most consistent and most principled global citizens we can be.

Assigned readings: The U.S. Constitution, Woodrow Wilson's Fourteen Points speech and the Declaration of Independence.

http://www.nytimes.com/20...4FRIE.html

awww man, TheMax...this is what people are telling our teachers to use as a guide for explaining Sept. 11? That scares me...

so, while the Muslim Nation preaches that America is horrible..We are too teach that the world is jealous of us and that we are superior? Ohh yeah...thats compassion...No, thats a remedy for self-destruction. I do however think that the U.S. Constitution, Woodrow Wilson's Fourteen Points speech and the Declaration of Independence should be required reading...

SkletonKee said:

Umm what is "the Muslim Nation"--no such country exists. The majority of Muslims are NOT Arabs. A significant portion of the Arab population is NOT Muslim. And not all Muslim Arabs think alike.

Please don't make the mistake of grouping an entire religion of people who number 1.4 billion into ONE monolithic group.

NuPwrSoul said:

sorry..i meant to type arab nation...my bad...you should have seen my other type that i had to correct...instead of Isreal i typed Islam...hehehehhee...it was a late night...thanks for the correction.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Read the thread I made.

No seriously, not because I made it, but because it explains it partially.

My professor also said that if ur some poor Saudi Arabian teenage guy with no hope 4 the future cuz ur country treats u like shit, and some guy (bin laden) comes along and tells u it's THEIR fault, and deflects attention away from ur own country's problems, thereby using the U.S. as a scapegoat 4 its failures, u r going 2 join bin laden because now u have some1 2 blame everything on. Now u have what is in ur eyes justification 4 everything that has happened 2 u in ur life.

And my professor is NOT, btw, some sort of quack. He is the only professor of Islamic studies between Toronto and Binghamton, NY so he's not exactly small fries.


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[This message was edited Sat Sep 7 21:30:36 PDT 2002 by Nep2nes]

While it is clear that AL Qaeda are terrorists, what saddens me is that racial stereotyping is now rife. I know people who have suffered verbal and physical abuse due to some ignorant people, tarnishing EVERYONE who follows Islam as terrorists.

NuPwrSoul said:
Umm what is "the Muslim Nation"--no such country exists. The majority of Muslims are NOT Arabs. A significant portion of the Arab population is NOT Muslim. And not all Muslim Arabs think alike.

Please don't make the mistake of grouping an entire religion of people who number 1.4 billion into ONE monolithic group.
***

NuPwrSoul: This is very true.

An interesting article by Max Lucado states:


"There are more than a billion Muslims (about 1 out of every 5 people on the plant); the U.N. projects that by 2055 at least half of the global birthrate will be Islamic."

"Already there are many more Muslims than Episcopalians in America, and, within ten years, Islam may be the second largest religion in the United States."

"Between 1989 and 1998 the Islamic population in this country grew by 25%; there are now estimated to be between 4 and 7 million Mulslims in the U.S."


From John Esposito, Political Islam: Beyond the
Green Menace

"Muslims vary as much in their interpretations of Islam as followers of other faiths with theirs. For the vast
majority of believers, Islam, like other world religions, is a faith of peace and social justice, moving its
adherents to worship God, obey His laws, and be socially responsible."

What I happy to see here is the "For the vast majority
of believers, Islam, like other world religions, is
a faith of peace and social justice..." This also
is very true.

Please forgive me for repeating this from Nep's forum, but,
this is an important quote to remember!


Is it the religion, or people, that come between us?
That makes people hate, and go to war?
A religion can influence a persons behavior, but, that
doesn't make a person's behavior right. Somehow people
justify their behavior, but, that isn't what their
religion is teaching. God wants us to love, not hate,
and pray for oneanother.

This is scarey stuff. I saw a documentary on British TV last night, on Channel 4 about Al Qaeda. While I do not make a habit of watching such programmes, or totally learning and informing myself of as much as possible, what I do know is frightening.

Someone on this thread said that if you knew all that was going on behind closed doors, your head would spin. I bet. One thing I am certain of. There is no 'good' v 'evil'. There are terrorfying acts being carried out in the world. I thankfully can't even begin to imagine the scale of the delusions in the peoples minds that carry them out. Suffice to say, when getting in touch with my fear around such topics, I feel the only way I can stop my feelings of hopelessness to make a difference is to do something myself.

What can little old me do?

Turn within. Turn within. Turn within. Sort my own mini wars out. Not mini wars? Oh yes they are. There are degrees of war. I want to work on my own hypocricy. I can outwardly do stuff like support Greenpeace and write to my MP about global warming. Nothing is more powerful than sorting my own ship out.

Here lies the answer (I believe) to all of the problems in the world.