A month ago a ran into a young woman I hadn't talked to in almost two years. She's an old personal friend of mine, and I had a terrible crush on her back then. Unfortunately it was as one-sided as it gets. However after I fell off with her, she just disappeared somewhere. Now that I accidentally met her finally again last December, she told me she had more or less quit her studies at the University because she had gotten so depressed, and moved to the north-side of the country to just live in an apartment owned by her parents. I got the idea that she's been basically doing nothing all this while. Maybe she wrote poems.

Now I still think that she is an amazing person and I'd get quite worried as well, but if a male would confess to something like that you'd just regard him as a complete loser. But when women are doing something like this they are rather "in search of themselves", or something similar.

I too had my "silent years" in my early twenties when I moved back to my Mom's house and basically wasted time by making music that went nowhere - I didn't work and didn't have much social life either - I have to admit in retrospect I was indeed a "loser". Or at least fastly becoming one. I certainly didn't even dare to have approached women during that period, as I was so low on self-esteem. It's something that I don't even like to talk about that openly.

But she seemed to have no trouble addressing her current situation. And she talked about it maintaining her feminine prestige, perfectly aware of the fact that as a person who had once turnt me down she could still do it would I open up about it again. She knew very well a lot of men would be still attracted to her, no matter if she really wouldn't have given a terrible stable image of her life to other people.

Is it really just so simple that women are still worthy and attractive as long as they still just have a functional womb?

If a man told me he'd gone through that, I wouldn't find him any less attractive. If he was currently in the midst then yeah, it's not so attractive, but just cause someone's (man or woman) gone through a rough period in their life doesn't make them the ultimate loser forever.
God, at least I hope not or I have no hope.

And I really don't think my womb is all that attractive. I'd hope it's my laugh or my smile or my sense of style or my charm or something.

Yeah, my womb is ugly

DanceWme said:

tasty too.

BlackAdder7 said:

Interesting...

I mean, as I was sitting across the table at a bar, facing her, all I could think myself was, "OH MY FUCKING GOD SHE IS AMAZING". Altough basically I should have considered her a serious fuck-up were the gender roles reserved.

novabrkr said:

I gotta say, man, I've known some really messed-up, but super-beautiful, women. The ones who broadcast their neuroses can come off as real game-players, in the end, and are not worth the effort.

novabrkr said:

I suppose some women may think that way, but not all. I can only speak from my personal experience and while success and accomplishment are indeed attractive traits in a man, they're not the only ones. I really wouldn't be up for dating someone in the midst of all that, but your stuff together again, though, and we can talk.

This whole idea that people are "losers" is ridiculous and irritating. If they're not fitting into expectations of the culture, that means they're probably doing a lot of indefinable, but necessary inner work which is more important than having vocational status. Also when people are in these stages, they're working on themselves, not looking for relationships. Sounds like you're struggling with sexism in society, which can bite at men more than women.

novabrkr said:

Thats usually how it works men have to be together and successful or women have no interest, women just have to be able to ly on their back

novabrkr said:

Yes.
Paris Hilton epitimizes this perfectly.

In that famous video of hers,
her womb appeared very functional.

Illustrator said:

I'm a casino excutive at the Bellagio in Vegas, and there is a porn convention in town this week so I was standing with a few of the other bosses last night watching all the porn chicks walk by in the casino.

Then this 500lbs gorilla in a mini skirt gets in our way and starts obstructing our view. I said to my friend "figures this place is full of hot insane porn chicks and we can't see past this prophilactic". My friend says " yeah but for as ugly as that chick is there is some guy that will fuck her tonight".

He's right men will fuck anything.

LordEvil said:

Well of course.

While I would much prefer a successful, beautiful woman with a functional womb,
but all I had at the moment was one that looked like King Kong's illegimate son,
I'd still fuck her.
I am, after all, a professional (& to be honest, it's matter of courteousness...
"If you can't be with the one love,
love the one you wit'.").
But, in this day & age,
I should have options.

That's all I'm sayin'.

Illustrator said:

The one thing that is cool about my job is, that it is like one big social observation deck. Sometimes it can be fucking hilarious, watching some guy get real desperate over some girl that is so nasty, that if he wakes up with his cock in her mouth he'd chew it off himself just to get out of the room.

LordEvil said:

Ahh....
You mean,
"Coyote Ugly".
Chewing off one's own appendage just to save the rest of the body.

Illustrator said:

Exactly I see so many guys trying to pick up these cows that I would walk past in search fo a place to jerk off.

LordEvil said:

One man's trash is another man's treasure. I'm not saying there aren't men out there who will sleep with just about anyone, but just cause you think a girl is a 'cow' doesn't mean no other man could be genuinely into her.

Just sayin'.

CarrieMpls said:

Actually in some way it does mean that, i'm not saying the cow ain't gonna get tipped, but it won't be given a pasture.

novabrkr said:

This is very interesting....I have had similar thoughts on this myself....I suppose it comes down to what is "expected" of men and women. Though everything is subject to exceptions but what is taught to us by parents, peers, and society at large is men are supposed be out doing something productive, women are supposed to be attractive and elegant in their actions and appearance. Now we all know that is not the case all the time, but from what I seen that is the general rule of thumb to the "life plan" some seem to be on.

Now if women are or are not "out doing something" like men are supposed to be..... for women "out doing something" is seen as an "option" not an expectation. So failure to do so is not frowned upon as badly if it were a man. As long as you maintained your "expectation" as a woman to be attactive and elegant in your actions and appearance then your good. Again this is what I seem to get from instances like this...its not a fact or anything.

My similar situation is one where if you have a pretty girl working at a Mcdonalds its a pretty girl working at a Mcdonalds. If its a cute guy working at a Mcdonalds it's "He's cute but I can't see myself with someone who works at a Mcdonalds".
[Edited 1/13/07 15:10pm]

Sinister said:

Yeah, that's a very good, elementary description of it. That's like the foundation of the whole phenomenon.

The reason why I put that story up there is that it's a bit more complex (and of course I wanted to rant about my own life ). She openly talked about her mental problems, And this person had everything ahead of her. She was always getting good grades at the university, had a highly active social life, was living the sort of youth that most people won't get to have. To drop out from completing your degree after already several years of studying to go live off your parents just because, "I had hard time" or "I didn't like living in a big city", would be totally out of question for most males.

It's about admitting to failing really, and could a man do anything less attractive than talk about what a terrible failure he has become over the last few years? I still love her as a person, and I'm worried as an old friend, but I was also quite ataken just even by the tone of her voice she was speaking about these things. It was like I still had to do my best to try to impress her, even if she'd already said "no" to me in the past as well.

LordEvil said:

What does that mean, exactly?

applekisses said:

It means a guy will fuck a cow but he won't buy her dinner or give her anything else

applekisses said:

I think he assumes every man has the same taste he does. That's all I get out of it.

CarrieMpls said:

Sounds about right

LordEvil said:

CarrieMpls said:

Not really, it means both men and women treat each other horribly, if a man doesn't have money he is a loser, and if a woman isn't a runway model she gets treated with very little dignity.

Now if the man has money and the woman is good looking, they will torture the shit out of each other until one them is arrested or dead.

LordEvil said:

I think women are just more at ease with discussing thses things with anyone who will listen. (I speak for myself here after just having come home from therapy)

Men generally won't open up about that sort of stuff. It involves feelings and emotions you know.

minneapolisgenius said:

Yeah, that's true I guess. And it means that even after all these years I was not going to get any.