I was talking to a friend recently whose parents are Chinese. They were very poor when they were kids and used to work in the rice fields. Then when they got a bit older they moved to Vancouver. Her dad got a job washing dishes and her mom started working at a fish cannery. They saved every cent and invested it into education, which they then used to get slightly better jobs. Step by step they managed to get into society properly and their standard of living steadily improved. Today they are very well off and live comfortably in a nice house, and enjoy their retirement after long prosperous careers as manager and business-owner.

Their achievement is quite astonishing and very impressive, nobody can take that away from them. But imagine this; what if my friend and I were to make the same journey of success from our starting point (with comfortable lives in stable economies and plenty of things going for us) as her parents did from theirs? For that to be possible, we would have to become president and pope at the very least!

Not exactly a reasonable expectation, right? But as all human beings we feel the urge to make the most of our potential, so we're bound to become frustrated and disappointed in ourselves for constantly falling short of what we should be able to accomplish. This is of course a luxury problem but a big problem nonetheless, especially when you're always ambitious and focused on doing your very best. It can even create apathy and depression if you let it go too far.

Has anyone else experienced this? If so, how do you cope with it?

retina said:

I do by trying to live in the now.

I reckon these days it's harder than ever.

Even to get educated and get a job that keeps you at the comfort level you grew up expecting, is challenging. I know here my generation are worse off in that way, the kids are unlikely to be able to afford a house like their parents could, for example, due to crippling property prices.

I don't think I ever felt pressure to do better than my parents, at least not from them, but more to be the same as them.

Illustrator said:

You mean you try not to think about the future and what you should accomplish in it? I guess that's one way of dealing with it, and it's probably healthy in a short-term perspective at least. I'd just be worried though that if I just deal with what is right in front of me each day, I'll wake up one day and think to myself "what have I done with my life?".

ZombieKitten said:

Have they improved their lives since they were kids? If not, do you think that might be the reason that you don't feel the need to keep building on the living situation that they have given you? I think my parents have indirectly affected me. Since my dad grew up poor and worked his way up to the standard he has now, I feel like I should achieve something equally significant from my own starting point. And that's a pretty tough thing to do.

retina said:

No,
I mean that I plan for the future, I don't worry about it.
Anxiety usually takes on the form of either regret (which is focusing on the past, which no longer exists) or the form of worry (which is focusing on the future which hasn't happened yet, so doesn't exist yet).
The only thing we ever have is the now.
To try & cope with the future is mentally exhausting because no one truly really knows what will happen in the future. You can try to predict, & come close, but you'll never get it exactly right.
When my big brother passed away,
I remember during his last hours he was alive, hoping for him that his last moments were of peace, meaning no worries & no regrets.
That the form that peace takes. No worries, no regrets.
I don't want to wait til I have only a few hours of life left to reach this point.
I want it now.

That means I have to accept everything the way it is now.
That doesn't mean that I don't strive for change.
I'll implement whatever actions I can now that might affect or influence change,
but what I can do now is really all I can do.
Why add worry to it?

I do what I can,
plan the best that I can,
& deal with the consequences as they come.

retina said:

My dad was raised in a pretty rural region by a single mother who had not even finished her primary schooling (or even been to Stockholm). He moved to another country and studied medicine and then dentistry, racking up an enormous student debt.

My mum, her parents and 2 siblings lived in a 3 room apartment, her dad had an antique shop and her mum was a secretary. My mum met my dad who encouraged her to study physiotherapy at the same university he was attending.

Both have done better than their parents before them. I did feel pressure to get a university degree though.

Illustrator said:

Exactly.

This Andy Warhol quote might also be helpful:

That is a VERY interesting perspective. I never thought about it quite like that.

I do think that a lot of younger people feel like if you don't become rich and famous, you've failed. Just having a happy, comfortable life isn't enough anymore. And where attaining a happy and comfortable life is still possible for most people, fame and fortune is not available to the masses basically by definition. What a weird sort of hard-knock life. But I think you're right. . . there's something about the longing that seems to be human nature.

From someone who has spent my life being ambitious and striving for extremely difficult goals, I have experienced this and now take the approach of balance.

That is, strive all you want and pursue your dreams, but not to the detriment of your health, relationships, and general well-being. That attitude tends to be a self-monitoring system as long as you forgive yourself for not being the best at everything you work for.

Also to turn it all around and live your life as service to others while still taking care of yourself, tends to bring a nice amount of balance and perspective.

And to take Andy Warhol's quote even further and most importantly, realize the world is ultimately unreal. That is, it is nothing but change and will never meet anyone's expectations. Therefore, bump yourself off the wheel of samsara and be at peace.

retina said:

I say just do it, then you'll have no regrets. At least you tried. The more uncomfortable route can be the most fulfilling in the end.

Not that one should complain about growing up middle or upper class, but it comes with it's own problems.

I think depression is huge among rich folks, who can't understand why they're still unhappy when they've got everything they could need & want.

And being given what you want from a young age can lead to expectations that life (as far as material things go) will always be so easy. Most rich kids I know don't grow up to be as successful as their parents (with exceptions, of course).

And when you mention performance anxiety, that makes literal sense. I know artists (I can include myself to some extent) who try to leave their privileged pasts behind through drugs or alcohol, in an attempt to appear more "real," as they believe artists should appear.

It's all illusion, and it can all be overcome, but those are patterns I see, coming from a somewhat wealthy upbringing.

I think the key is to not feel guilty about what you were born into, and to just live the best life you can, enjoying the pleasures life can bring and rising to it's challenges, same as everyone else.

It just goes to show that spiritual fulfillment has nothing to do with material wealth, so that may be the first order of priority. Also, one's deeply personal inner dreams of success may not at all fit into conventional middle class values. So maybe you'll have to reject what your parents and friends value and be your own person. This is scarier than it sounds.

Illustrator said:

That's all fine and good, but worrying is not something that can be switched off by pressing a button, nor can overambition or positive feelings either. This whole issue of control over one's feelings was discussed to death on another thread, and that's not really what I wanted to bring up here. I appreciate your take on it though, and I am very very sorry to hear about your brother. I'm sure he had been able to let go properly when he passed away and could leave this mortal coil in peace.

ZombieKitten said:

And you did get it. That was a great achievement. Did it give you a certain satisfaction, or did you feel like it was only a step on the way of fulfilling your full potential?

HereToRockYourWorld said:

Right, and it's understandable to a certain extent. Not just because of the pressure media puts on us by showing a constant stream of success stories, but also because there are more opportunities out there for us in the industrialized world. At least in theory. And we feel like it's our obligation to grab as many of them as possible.



That's right! To move from poverty and a life in misery to attaining a somewhat stable life with a reasonable level of comfort is quite achievable, at least if you're not at the very bottom of the pit of despair and if you have at least a few talents or means at your disposal. But if your starting point is a priviliged life - maybe not rich but at least a very comfortable one with lots of people believing in you and encouraging you - then the funnel gets very narrow very fast! Only a select few are allowed to take the steps to the success that they have potential for and the rest are left in frustration.



Absolutely. It doesn't matter what stage in Maslow's Pyramid you're at, that longing can be equally strong regardless. Thank you for understanding.

heartbeatocean said:

You're right that it is a somewhat self-monitoring system. But focusing on a dream can easily turn into an obsession and push you way past the limit you're talking about (where it starts to affect your well-being) before you even know it. Then you try to scale back the dream and make it more reasonable, but that is a very painful process since it means giving up something that is a deep longing in you. And before you know it you're taking another emotional punch in the face because another dream has proven to be mainly a source of frustration.

I guess with time the self-monitoring system kicks in faster and faster when needed, and the foriveness you're talking about gets easier. I know it does for me. But in a way you have to be wary of trying to stop yourself from dreaming too. Dreams should never end up being nipped in the bud right after they've come to life. Then you'll just end up disillusioned and bitter.



True. Focusing on the happiness of others can have a very soothing effect. Let's just hope it doesn't mean moving over the pressure and the expectations to them!



Okay, I don't agree with any of that. But it was interesting.

gemini13 said:

That's usually my attitude too. I'm not afraid of getting uncomfortable in order to achieve what I dream about. I just think it feels unfair sometimes that some people are dropped off at base camp by the foot of Mount Everest and asked to climb to the first station, while others are dropped off near the top, where the climb to the summit is extremely steep. It's both unfair to the people at the bottom since they never get to see the summit, and it's unfair to the people near the top since they'll almost risk their bloody lives during their challenging climb.

retina said:

Worrying results from thoughts.
While we cannot control the thoughts that come into our heads, we can control which ones to focus on.
I'm not saying that this is easy cuz it's a decision we have to make every second of every minute of every day, but it is very doable.

I'm not too clear, though, on why my response doesn't fit into what you're bringing up.

You asked about how one deals with the priviliges one has & the anxiety that comes with it.
My response told you how I dealt with it.
[Edited 1/6/07 18:19pm]

NDRU said:

Exactly! I'm not rich or anything, but I feel that I have what I need and I feel like I should be happy because of that. And when you try to bring about happiness by force just because it would make sense to be happy, you make yourself unhappy in the process. Or depressed even!



Right, of course a priviliged position can make some people lazy too. I'm not denying that.



Interesting point. Since the priviliged can't strive upwards, being already near the top, they strive downwards instead, at least in terms of material wealth and stability, in search of a challenge and a simpler life where dreams can take place and actually be realized. I'm sure they feel guilty and awkward for saying no thanks to the priviligies that they've been given though. To survive a storm that hits your town brings a lot more satisfaction than seeking out a storm-ridden area just to put yourself through it and then survive.



Yeah, but that's what I'm saying; the challenges are not quite the same for everybody. I take your point though.

It helps me to recognise patterns. I know I'm the son of a man who made it on his own, and I know that statistically I won't do as well as him. Therefore it's not entirely my fault if I don't but it is a credit to me if I do.

retina said:

HELL NO! I don't constantly fall short.(other than height) I'm lucky and grateful to be where I am and I thank myself for most of it.
And don't make up any excuses to feel sorry for yourself and be apathetic, nor feel guilty about the whole damn thing. Not everyone has a sense of ambition nor achievement. You're refering to the CHINESE for Christsakes!!
Seriously speaking, my family have sponsored Chinese families, Turkish families, Mexican families in the U.S. for citizenship. If you understood the circumstances in China, where intellect for a long time was negative (Mao) and those with PhD's were forced to do manual labor as punishment for their prior status....(read"Life and Death in Shanghai" by Nien Cheng) you'd understand how easy a foreigner can learn a new language and succeed. And I don't think a single family we've sponsored feels guilty about the hard work (towards a goal), that's put into doing well.
You think you could do better.....think about how you could've done worse.

Any time you want to be nailed to the cross, I'll fly over to Austr. with a hammer and nails. You provide the cross.
[Edited 1/6/07 20:18pm]
[Edited 1/6/07 20:30pm]

retina said:

The idea that achieving your dreams is a strenuous and grueling process is actually a belief that you may hold. It doesn't necessarily have to be that difficult. In the past I have worked with a "life coach" or a "dream coach" and she helped me break down these barriers, because most of what is holding us back is our limiting beliefs, like fear of success.

The idea is that you DO NOT scale back your dream or limit it. DREAM DREAM and go on DREAMING...then when you find out what your true dream is (it may take a while to even figure that out), then sit back and assess and maybe get a helper to take clear concrete steps toward that dream. It may be calling up someone you don't know just to interview them or joining a workshop or something, and may involve a risk. My coach would have me make weekly commitments that I would have to fulfill in one week, but they would be simple, manageable steps. I actually got a dream job this way remarkably, amazingly. It works for me when I have someone who unconditionally supports me and keeps me accountable.



No it has to be selfless service. I volunteer at a nursing home for elders who are severely disabled mentally and physically and in their final years of life. No risk of transferring my own desires onto them. It puts A LOT of things into perspective.


You don't believe the world is forever in a state of flux?

retina said:

I feel this everyday, especially being a woman in an extremely male dominated field (film directing) and because I didn't grow up with very functional parents much less a film director for a father who could train me or at least give me exposure -- (i.e. Sofia Coppola) though I do respect her work very much...

It's not fair at all but I don't think we have to feel sorry for those at the summit or feel guilty about being there.

retina said:

yes, thank you it was. (The bigger achievement was probably my stoner sister also managing to get one too)

The degree was a means to an end. I didn't care about the qualification so much, but you have to have it in my line of work to get a job.

I was glad when I finished university, but also so afraid of stepping out into the real world, at the time of an economic recession here. I put off the job search for nearly 2 years - I was so afraid of rejection, and as fragile as my self-esteem was back then, it was probably the right thing to do. At the time that piece of paper gave me no satisfaction at all.

Maybe my profession wasn't up there in the same social standings as a medical one, but my parents could see from an early age that it was what I was meant to do, and my father always wished it was something he could have done too, so instead of pressure I felt only support.

My parents did well for themselves considering their background and have a comfortable living, from there i have a decent education and advantages etc and my goal is indeed to end up ahead of where i started.
But more important to me is being a better person and not perpetuating the issues passed down to me by my parents. My family, i am determined will have a father that is there for his kids and loves and supports them in every way and is determined that they shall be what they want to be not i want them to be.

retina said:

Oh, I know....when screening residents here I have to know what their annual salary is. I just rented an apartment to a girl who turned 18 a few months ago. She's an event planner for her father's company. She makes $9000 a month. There are so many other young people in this area like her. I don't let things like that get me down. I can't feel bitter just because someone else had it easier than I. It's counterproductive.

xplnyrslf said:

I'm not making up excuses, nor am I ungrateful. I'm very grateful for the starting point in life that I've been given. And of course I do my best to reach even higher, but like I said in a previous post the road gets steeper the closer to the summit you get.



Why are you yelling? You're not being very clear either. Yes, I mentioned two Chinese people. Are you implying that they are ambitious or that they're not ambitious? I used them as an example of two very hard-working people that had nowhere to go but up. I did this to illustrate my point (which I don't think you're getting) that although I don't envy the situation they were in at all, I envy that there was so much upward potential in their lives. If I come from a starting point much higher up the ladder, and have an equal amount of ambition compared to them, it becomes much more difficlt for me to improve my life to the same extent that they improved theirs. I don't pity myself for this reason - like I said, it's a luxury problem - but it can be a big problem nonetheless.



I don't have to read any books to understand the situation in China. I've experienced it myself firsthand and have many Chinese friends.



Again, you're not being clear. Are you talking about their work to better their own lives? In that case, of course they don't feel guilty. Why would they? Or are you talking about the work you do to help them? I can see how that might make some of them feel a bit guilty, but not necessarily so. Either way, all that is beside the point. Ireally get the feeling that I've touched a nerve again, and that you've gone off on a tangent that isn't quite relevant to this topic.



That's true. All one can do is one's best. It can still be frustrating sometimes though, when you feel like you should and want to do more.



Okay, first off I'm from Sweden, so don't buy the plane ticket to "Austr." (Austria? Australia?) just yet. Second, are you implying that I think I'm Jesus? Where did you get that from? Or are you implying that I want to be a martyr? I don't know where you would have gotten that from either. Given the context of this thread, you're really not making much sense.

What kinda hemp wearing patchouli oil dressing kinda hippie bullshit is this?