thechronic said:

theC
ain't nobody tripping about you riding in your echo

I've been in this conversation B4 with some of U, and I just wanted 2 say right now, that U guys rock.

Talk about it respectfully and increase each others awareness of what each other feels.

This is one of, if not THE most important step in bringing about tolerance and love worldwide.

Consultation, my friends...keep it up.

theC said:

Hey! I got an Echo, and it plays Prince loud as hell!!!

feltbluish said:

theC
Ain't nothing wrong with an echo.But it's not the type of car cops think you will steal.

i support the libertarian position on this issue

one side of my family came to america from sweden in the 1860's, dirt poor, and worked the land to better themselves. they did not own slaves, not did they live or work in an area which benfited from slavery.

the other side of my family fought in and lost family members to the civil war. i would resent being asked to pay reparations to a cause for which my family has already paid in blood.

america owes more than an apology to the descendants of slaves, but by the same token it also owes something to native americans, not to mention any other individual who has ever suffered discrimination on the basis of gender, race or creed.

how about a class action lawsuit for reparations to be paid to working women who, even today, are paid less for the same work performed by a male? if that sounds unreal to you, then consider how unreal reparations payments seem to me . . .

theC said:

and that's EXACTLY Y I stole mine!!!

feltbluish said:

well, i gotta admit this is the *first* reperation thread I have *EVER* opened anywhere...I have always avoided these discussions because of how disrespectful I know a lot of people can be..to my suprise, this thread has been rather informative..not that ive changed my views much...or maybe i have and just dont know it yet..

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

In the case of institutions that are still around, i.e., the government as well as various corporations, it is easy to decide.

XxAxX said:

I'm sure that not every German was a Nazi. Yet and still the entire country of Germany has had to pay, and continues to pay reparations to Holocaust survivors, as well as to the founding of Israel. The precedent has already been established in international law.

Of course just like the power structure in America to want to change the rules of the game just when folks learn how to play. Even playing field, uh huh. Yeah right.

NuPwrSoul said:

you know...im sure you could pretty much argue every arguement against this...but, for me, I still end up asking the question..."What good will it do?" When we paid the Japanese, what good did that do? Yes, I agree that there is a symbolic jesture that is needed from the US Government...but, I have yet to read any arguement that justifies the paying of money...

for far too long I have seen my brothers and sisters use this issue as a crutch...money will never stop that.

NuPwrSoul said:

Agreed, if you are going to only specifically target companies that owe their success to their participation in slave use. Now if you are going to ask the government to pay for this, this means taxes. Will the government collect taxes from white people or only white people in the south? I can't see how this could possibly work. Giving money to individuals is absolutely the wrong thing to do. IMO the thing to do is to build infrastructures within the communities to insure that future generations benefit from "reparations", not just this generation that was lucky enough to be here when the government issued checks to atone for it's early sins.

SkletonKee said:

Yes, I agree totally. I mentioned my views and evidence against reparations on a previous thread and had quite a debate, it was censored and after receiving death threats I feared for my life and now share the utter titillations of living in the cool gaseous confines of a basement in a remote girls' dormitory...

But on a more serious note, I share much of the same views as the Libertarians (except abortion, drugs legal, ie) which is less government, more focus on individual achievement. What good has all the many social programs done for this country? It's created a dependance on government (A DELIBERATE DEPENDANCE IN POWER-MAD CIRCLES) and abuse of it's offerings. That's human nature. Unemployment comp extends, why work, soak the dough. Welfare check comes in, why work for minimum wage, you're makin more not. Medicare's payin doctor bills you (and the doctor) are with the mentality "let the government pay." On and on, multiply it times thousands and we've got problems. As far as healing the black communities it starts individual by individual with character, values.

Trillions have already been poured into the communities through programs starting in the late 60's and things have worsened, not gotten better. Slavery was a sin of America's past but it's been historic precedant the world over. America is different for the fact we fought a war over it, eradicated it and had a president assasinated for it. The playing field is quite level, nowhere else in the world can one achieve so much but here. Equality of opportunity, yes; but equality of outcomes, results is communism. Nice in theory, doesn't work in real life as we discover over and over.


Realistically and unfortunately we can't expect any major political gains of power with Libertarians in our lifetime (state legislature?). It's dominantly a two party system, but conservatives hold many of the same views.

Anyway, keep your heads up. Life's too damn short.

Show Me the Money, a Apology,Free Health--Insurance,Education to any College,2 Yearly trips to the Motherland,Fair Job Practices&rip up the 1964 Civil Rights Piece of Paper because it's only a piece of Paper once you are at work in most places your civil Rights are all but forgotten.anybody who thinks Hostility isn't already incresed is missing the boat.40 Acres&a Mule as well.it's time for America to Own up to Her Ugly Past&Acknowledge a Wrong that has gotten spread to far like a Bad tooth that needs to be pulled.it's a Poison that still Rots many a mind.

bonojr said:

Actually most of these programs began as part of the "New Deal" started by Franklin Roosevelt's administration to rescue the country from the Great Depression. And guess what? The biggest case for government based WELFARE went to corporations to bail them out of the stock market crash.

The civil war was not fought over slavery, but to preserve the union. It was a war over what kind of economy would rule (manufacturing/shipping/commerce/industrial capitalism of the north vs. agrarian capitalism of the south). Slavery was quite incidental.

And the playing field is NOT level, not unless you consider a three hundred year late start in the race "even."

NuPwrSoul said:

Incidental? The argrarian capitalism of the south was based on slavery. "The civil war wasn't about slavery" is what hillbillies that want the Confederate flag flown over their capitol building say, Nu. How disappointing...

NuPwrSoul said:

Civil war not over slavery? Hmmm, this train of thought goes well with other historic revisionism, like how the Indians we're all in peaceful harmony until the evil settlers arrived. Everyone has the same access to opportunity and achievement in this country. Ironically, statisics show this quite the case with Nigerian, Caribbean immigrants, not to mention Asian immigrants with their success.

Aaron and Bonojr,

Those states that did not secede from the Union were allowed to remain slave holding states until the Thirteenth Amendment. And those that were still part of the Union were unaffected by the Emancipation Proclamation--they were allowed to remain slave holding states. To be accurate I would modify my statement and say that the civil war's causes cannot be simply reduced to slavery, as there were many other factors.

Further, Bono, with regard to the success of immigrants versus indigenous black folk, there are a few factors that contribute to the success of immigrants, including their ability to utilize their social and cultural capital which is in tact for immigrants while for black Americans it's been a process of recreating and rebuilding a social and cultural past and legacy after it was destroyed during slavery and Jim Crow.

Good article. Reparations does not make sense to me. College grants, health care, child care, home loans, low interest rates, makes more sense. The reparations should get washed up in the system, not come out of our pocket...

Berry said:

It amazes me that yall don't realize what "comes out of our pocket"--foreign aid in billions of dollars to foreign countries in order to maintain American influence; corporate welfare to bail-out World.com, Enron, etc., after their execs have waxed rich off the backs of their employees... who do you think pays for that? The government. The same government that we fund with our taxes. And the ones benefiting (high income tax bracket) are the ones getting tax breaks.

We pay for all this isht and everyone happily steps along. Before you start complaining about what comes out of your pocket, betta find out where your tax dollar is going.

IceNine said:

Oh, oh, oh. That's the height of injustice.

Wolf said:

Piercing insight and commentary are my favorite things...

.[/quote]

Further, Bono, with regard to the success of immigrants versus indigenous black folk, there are a few factors that contribute to the success of immigrants, including their ability to utilize their social and cultural capital which is in tact for immigrants while for black Americans it's been a process of recreating and rebuilding a social and cultural past and legacy after it was destroyed during slavery and Jim Crow.[/quote]

The above statement tells me a few things. But concerning the statement:

Social and cultural capital???!! People have made it here from all over the globe with the clothing on their backs. Materialism, the past, it doesn't amount to a hill of beans when you have character and the will and drive to succeed. If you have no positive focus, negatives will automatically enter. I'm talking about character, worldview here. Jesse Jackson himself was born in squalor and broken home. He graduated college, ran for two presidential elections -- wouldn't you call this success the result of some drive? Endurance? A plan? Willpower? The guy worked his butt off. That's what you have to do. Believing in victimhood and a societal bondage from the doom and gloom crowd from books, the media, etc will never get one anywhere. Our destiny's are here and now. Let's empower ourselves to make a difference. We don't need leaders but we do need role models I'd argue.

bonojr said:

I don't disagree with anything you've stated. In fact, it is that very sense of MISSION and DRIVE and AMBITION which is partly responsible for folks' success.

The nature of an immigrant... someone who is willing to pack up and leave everything familiar behind and go to a foreign country... that kind of person is on a MISSION regardless of where he or she comes from. He or she is leaving behind many people who would rather just drift from day to day. Immigrants are a self-selected group of people and are not representative of their former countrymen/countrywomen.

Further many immigrants, when they do arrive... those who are successful soon get involved in pooling their resources and wealth to establish businesses and services for members of their own communities. They do this because of their (1) sense of mission, but also because of (2) their sense of social and cultural connectedness and shared sense of mission with their fellow countrymen/women. This is what I am referring to as cultural capital. A strong sense of a past in their homeland, and a strong sense of community with other strangers who have made the journey to America.

This sense of community was NOT allowed to develop among slaves, who had to re-establish and re-form that sense of community out of nothing. Has it yielded some success yes. But for the most part attempts to build black communities have been attacked as separatist or nationalistic, or even worse, destroyed through government action or white mob attacks. Rosewood is a good example of that. "Black Wall Street" in Oklahoma City is an example of that.

[/quote]

I don't disagree with anything you've stated. In fact, it is that very sense of MISSION and DRIVE and AMBITION which is partly responsible for folks' success.

The nature of an immigrant... someone who is willing to pack up and leave everything familiar behind and go to a foreign country... that kind of person is on a MISSION regardless of where he or she comes from. He or she is leaving behind many people who would rather just drift from day to day. Immigrants are a self-selected group of people and are not representative of their former countrymen/countrywomen.

Further many immigrants, when they do arrive... those who are successful soon get involved in pooling their resources and wealth to establish businesses and services for members of their own communities. They do this because of their (1) sense of mission, but also because of (2) their sense of social and cultural connectedness and shared sense of mission with their fellow countrymen/women. This is what I am referring to as cultural capital. A strong sense of a past in their homeland, and a strong sense of community with other strangers who have made the journey to America.

This sense of community was NOT allowed to develop among slaves, who had to re-establish and re-form that sense of community out of nothing. Has it yielded some success yes. But for the most part attempts to build black communities have been attacked as separatist or nationalistic, or even worse, destroyed through government action or white mob attacks. Rosewood is a good example of that. "Black Wall Street" in Oklahoma City is an example of that.[/quote]


I agree with your statements about immigrants, many have willingly taken the plunge in pursuit of a better life, but many had to flee communist and tolitarian regimes -- Vietnamese, East Europeans, Russians.

That's interesting about cultural capital. I agree somewhat that those displaced will feel torn between two worlds...it's that way in many countries, the Arabs from North Africa in France feel the same from my experience. This is the best point I've read on this matter on here by the way.

Attempts to build black communities have been thwarted by whom? Yes, there are disgraceful incidents that you mentioned, but as far as in general? I would argue crime, which causes poverty, and illegitmacy (70%) are strong issues for reflection. Both have substantially increased after the 50's. Of course, these factors have risen for whites as well (illegitmacy 24%). In addition, has continually voting for liberal, big government, and all it's utiopian programs which cause dependance helped?

NuPwrSoul said:

maybe because for the most part these ventures were separatist... we need to build a strong economic foundation that relys on *all* people as consumers..but for some reason, for the most part black enterprises want to rely on within to build, which is an immediate cause for failure..

i still havent discovered justification for the need to *pay* anything...a government declaration would suffice...as far as creating programs that help build build the black people...change the word from black to poor and uneducated and you gotta deal.

SkletonKee said:

Well if you have ever been to New York you would find that in Chinatown, most of the residents, businesses and services are provided by people of that same group. The same for Koreatown, "Little Guyana" in Richmond Hills Queens, the Caribbean (primarily Jamaican) neighborhood of Crown Heights, NY, the Hasidic Jewish community in Brooklyn, the Dominican community in Washington Heights, and the list goes on.

So there are very workable examples of other groups operating ventures that solely service their communities.

In Harlem however, it's a whole different story. Black communities are the only ethnic communities where the majority or a significant minority of all businesses are owned/operated by people NOT of that ethnicity.

Much of this has to do with the lack of capital in black communities, in part because of a self-defeatist element ("crabs in the barrell" "Willie Lynch" syndrome, etc.) that inhibits the pooling of resources. It also has to do with the redlining of districts, predatory lending practices by financial institutions, and the increasing incursion of big business in small communities (although those big business interests have yet to really infiltrate other ethnic communities).



No one is saying we shouldn't. However, there is no reason why small businesses and services cannot or should not establish a BASE in their own communities before expanding.

bonojr said:

See my post above for a brief description of some institutional obstacles (availability of capital, banks lending practices, etc.).



And I would argue, the departure of manufacturing jobs from the inner cities to foreign countries for cheap labor, leaving many unemployed and depleting the tax base in urban centers leaving poor services and underfunded schools, WHICH then leads to greater unemployment, which THEN causes poverty, and THEN crime.

I would put the root cause of these things as unemployment. Interesting to me that you put crime as the root cause as though out of nowhere and for no reason people in these communities just engage in crime.



There's no doubt that some government programs have not promoted independence, but for the record dependence has it roots not in welfare, but when black people were forced to live dependent on slavemasters for their subsistence... so much dependence that even after "emancipation" the freed people for the most part turned right around and ended up working for their former slavemasters as sharecroppers in another exploitive relationship.

NuPwrSoul said:

see, I work in the financial industry...and the lack of capital within the black community is due to the *lack* of responsibility overall within the black community...we cant throw blame on predatory lenders..they manipulate *all* ignorant people...i try to get out there within the community to teach them how to be financially responsible...but due to stubborn arrogance, people would rather blame then take responsibility and act...and then they keep on getting taken..and taken...and taken...

...now big business is just that, business...theres zero need to infiltrate or cater to a black community that hystorically doesnt manage fiscal responsibilities...thats the reason you cant start a black bussiness that relies on black dollars...but then im just as guilty of generalizing the african american communities plight as you are...so i think ill quit.

how long do we play this blame game before we start taking ownership of problems? thats all i think about when I read the above quote...

SkletonKee said:

First of all I said IN PART due to x, y, and z. Because the tone of this conversation always seems to want to focus on what black people are doing wrong, I'm trying to present some other factors that many here don't want to seem to consider. This is not and "either/or" proposition, but a "both/and" scenario and always has been.

It's not a blame game to identify ALL the factors responsible for arrested development. Once identified, folks have the responsibility to take action and act accordingly. Simple as that.

I disagree that this is a generalization about the condition of the black community similar to what you have argued, i.e., "lack of responsibility overall within the black community." Like what? What evidence of this do you offer?

One of the reasons why black businesses don't do well is represented in the attitude that you represent, i.e., your disdain, distrust, and lack of faith in black enterprises apparently. White corporations don't have that problem. They know what kind of resources exist in black communities and will set up shop, drawing on their own strength, in those communities and be quite profitable.

There are examples of black folk pooling resources and being quite profitable. The partnerships between Magic Johnson and Sony theaters, as well as Starbucks, and his and Janet and others partnership with black banking institutions have been relatively successful. There are some other successful examples black businesses working.

NuPwrSoul said:

He has a habit of doing that when the reparations issue comes up.