try again, Carrie

[Edited 11/25/06 10:53am]

this was an intelligent discussion, and i was learning from it.

My response to your question, Purplerein was:

If someone is dressing "inappropriately" at work, it's up to the boss to say something to that employee so that they make the appropriate changes to meet the dresscode.

Other than the boss, no one else gets to decide what is appropriate or not and therefore no one else has the right to say or do anything to the person they consider is dressing inappropriately.

JustErin said:

ok, so youre saying dress code is decided by management, and should be enforced by management...?

purplerein said:

Of course, and that does not give license to management to make comments that are inappropriate if someone is not meeting the dresscode.

JustErin said:

I agree with you. and please understand everyone, i'm just trying to learn right and wrong on this issue..management would have to indicate the inappropriate dress in a business like manner.

damn, what happened to the original thread?

We finally get an interesting discussion here that I actually come back for and someone's got it locked?

Reincarnate said:

what was your perspective on it Reincarnate?

purplerein said:

Well I could have told you if I'd seen various people's perspectives but all I saw was Apple's original post and my response. I thought it was going to open up into an interesting debate on what constituted sexual harrassment. Where did the thread go? What did I miss?

Reincarnate said:

it was withdrawn at the request of the creator. you missed an intelligent discussion

Reincarnate said:

what do you feel constitutes sexual harassment?

purplerein said:

pity ... I really thought it had the potential to be a great thread.

Apple - I hope my comments didn't offend. I wasn't casting judgement, just stating that I think that sexual harrassment can be defined differently by different cultures - I rather hoped we could all learn from one another what is and isn't acceptable.

Thanks purplerein for the update.

Reincarnate said:

I mentioned I agreed with you, in a sense. That americans are using regulations and law suits to take the place of common sense and simple social etiquette.
But I do think overall the laws and regulations are coming from the right place.

purplerein said:

To me, and I think this is where I'm coming from, it's a very personal thing.

For example, I quite like having fun at work and I find jokes, even of a sexual nature, can be amusing at times. But it depends who's telling them and what their relationship is to me. If a person walks into the office that I don't know and comes up and tells a crude joke, I'm likely to take offense. But to me that isn't sexual harrassment unless it happens repetitively and is aimed at me, or women in general.

I quite like the flirtatious thing at work, and am not averse to getting what I want from the guys (deadlines met etc) but flirting. But it's harmless. I can't see that what I do would be defined in any way as sexual harrassment, but then again it might in some cultures ....

An example - a few weeks ago, I dropped something on the floor next to one of the guys. I bent to pick it up and he said "while you're down there ...." ... I thought that was funny. That may not have been allowed in a country like the USA, where, I've been told by an ex-colleague, most companies have very strict rules on what is and isn't acceptable.

purplerein said:

The last long thing I wrote out had to do with how you mentioned respect being earned by actions and that manner of dress is an action.
My reply was that basic common courtesy should be extended to everyone, regardless the manner of dress. Snazzy looking busniessmen in suits can be the worst criminals, paupers in rags can have hearts of gold. Appearances can be deceiving. Strippers are no less deserving of respect and courtesy than doctors.

CarrieMpls said:

i didnt think of it from that perspective, thank you

CarrieMpls said:

We're doing the same thing on a different level here in Britain. Less so with sexual harrassment and more with minority groups. For instance, some companies here are banned from having "Christmas" parties and some local councils do not send "Christmas" cards in case they offend minorities.

I agree, we need to protect employees from sexual harrassment and, indeed, harrassment of any kind and that laws and regulations do have a place, but I also think we need to stop the political correctness madness that is defining us right now.

Reincarnate said:

yes in the u.s., that wouldn't have been acceptable. again, where i have trouble with this issue is..you admit you tease and flirt..so how is someone who knows you, going to know where to draw the line verbally? (any physical contact would be inappropriately, or licking of the ears)

purplerein said:

Common sense. You can't ever know without asking. If you do what feels right, 99% of the time you're fine. And if someone tells you you've offended them, you apologize and do not repeat whatever it was.

CarrieMpls said:

and in the case of where you work, where guys just cant keep their eyes off your boobies?

purplerein said:

oh God no, they'd never do that. It isn't that I flirt all the time at work - that definately doesn't happen. Most of the time I've got my head down (excuse the obvious pun) and am working diligently.

The men I work with definately all know where to draw the line because, although unspoken, it's very clear. I don't give anyone the come-on, or flirt seriously but if there's a double-entendre there for the taking, I'm just as likely to take it as someone else. It's fun but professional.

A few years ago, one of the project managers liked to call me "slaaaaag" - he'd say it just like that. I'm not a slag, I don't sleep around and it was just a joke that started (I can't even remember how). Now that would definately have constituted sexual harrassment, I was told by my American colleague, in America and it might have done also in Britain, but I knew the guy who called me that and it was funny - it was a joke we both shared. He would never had called anyone else that as it wouldn't have been funny and someone else may have taken it the wrong way.

CarrieMpls said:

Amen

purplerein said:

That was one person. And if it bothered me, I'd have called him on it. And really, I subtly did. I'd look down at my chest obviously, like I was trying to tell what he was looking at. It would get better after that. I was able to laugh it off. It's unfortunate, that the burden would have been on me to speak up about it, but I'm confident if I had to, it would have stopped.

CarrieMpls said:

do you feel threatened by it, or upset by it? does it make you feel weird?
[Edited 11/25/06 12:18pm]

Just to flip the script, when's the last time a man filed for sexual harrasement? When I get harrased at work it gives me an ego boost. If a man was to file for sexual harrasement he'd be branded one of two things automatically 1) Weirdo 2) Pussy. Hows that for double standards?

karmatornado said:

nevermind what anybody else thinks. nobody wants to come to a place anticipating awkward and uncomfortable situations.

karmatornado said:

what do you feel was do to harass you sexually?

purplerein said:

Two things: "If I was an unmarried woman I'd want your arms all up on my waist!"

"You should where those pants more often you have cute buns, followed by a slap on the ass."

The same chick did this twice, but I did not mind it as she is a big ass flirt who should have never been married, is only a few years older than me, and is hot. Hell, I don't mind this kind of stuff at all, it is good to feel desired from time to time, especially when you're not feeling sexy at all!

karmatornado said:

isn't what she said more towards teasing, rather than harassment? did you feel threatened?