herbthe4 said:

Sorry man, NJ is just fucked. Nothing more to it than that...perhaps Massachutsetts is worse, but that's about it...I feel your pain...

teller said:

So I guess as long as some oil company isn't dumping its waste in YOURfront yard, it's safe to assume "the environment is not in any danger."
[This message was edited Tue Aug 27 16:14:38 PDT 2002 by Aaron]

sarcasm alert

but WHY would georgie care about the health and survival of the planet when he could be waging war on his daddy's personal enemy? after all, saddam hussein was put in power by george bush senior, then turned around and flipped george sr the bird. it's a GRUDGE MATCH NOW, BABY, and we cannot tolerate that kind of attitude from a heathen mideast savage like hussein, RIGHT???

therefore, it makes PERFECT SENSE that our so our oh so intelligent, oh so well-informed president (insert 'spit' emoticon) should ignore the serious problems global industrialization is causing and instead start a war without public support or congress' support.

after all why SHOULD george w bush worry about little things like mass extinctions which have been happening at an accelerated rate this century, the over-population problem the planet faces, the lack of viable drinking water, food or even clean air the commoners must live with.

i mean hey, just because he's being paid to be responsible, educated, open-minded and to protect the interests of the american population doesn't mean he actually HAS to do his job like the rest of us, right??

he's got HIS priorities straight, right?

and fuck the rest of us.

and believe me, with this asshole in office we are well and truly fucked.

time for another boston tea party, only this time let's dump georgie and all his little enron buddies into the harbor

Essence said:

So I take it you agree with my other statements Wishful thinking I know. In 1492 in America we had less trees than we do now. They aren't saplings, ha ha. You're talking about virgin trees, which are probably quite sacred if one worships druids and such. I myself once sang with the buttercups, dousing myself in...okay, I'll stop. But really, now we're rating better trees? Why does this matter? The environment must be protected, but just to open your mind a bit, there is a whole separate thought on the subject, that is of actually utilizing resources, not going back to live like the pioneers and sustainability.

Also, keep in mind the third world doesn't have the regulations or capability to protect the environment like we can.

But of course I also agree that both political parties and certain industry are dominating/controlling the market such as oil for profit, rather than pursuing solar power cars or some new invention where they would lose money. Same way with the American Medical Association keeping the amount of doctors in this country down (not to mention those qualified but unable to practice due to the rules) to keep profits up. We have the same amount as we did 75 years ago -- to illustrate how I'm full of fun crazy facts and figures

bonojr said:

Do you have a source for any of these fun and crazy "facts"?

k, my english is lousy, my knowledge limited and and just should b tricked in2 this, but some remarks:

"the U.S., the greatest country in the world"
Name anything bsides power and ego-centrism, and i name u a greater country

"much to the disinformation by these so-called environmentalists, who crusade is actually a cover for their big government socialist/communist agenda to extort money from the U.S."
Where 2 begin...Communism?? ha! Socialism, yes, mostly a slightly corrected form of free market economy. Wanna compare poverty levels or general well-beeing?
Environmentalists who work FOR the governement to EXTORT money from the US. I'm not sure how u picture this, could u xplain, and mayb make a distinction btween developed and developing countries?

"Glacier's melting? Try melting and refreezing. Greenpeace was just caught with a falsified photo exhibiting how a glacier melted with today's warming...one problem, it was taken in the 1920's.

Greenhouse effect? Global Warming? Any legitimate scientist will tell you there is NO PROOF of this and if it does exist, it's so minor it wouldn't effect us. The earth is warming and cooling. Like the ozone doom and gloom scenerio (which we never here about since it's been debunked..we can't destroy the sun)."

U'r using a late 80ies discours here, when the ffects and xisting of global warming were still doubted. When Bush boycotted Kyoto he ordered an xtensive, new investigation, with the same result as all recent investigations: global warming is a real threat. But i'm sure El Nino is a coincidence. And i'm sure all the problems in Central Europe and China lately r coincidence.

"Deforestation? We have more trees now then when the country was founded. OUTRAGEOUS! Quite true. Today we can control forest fires, in addition, the whole logging operation is just like corn -- you chop em down and plant more, obviously to stay in business."

What is it? R trees important r not? bcause what u said b4 implies we don't need trees whatsoever. Further, when u'r destroying a whole rain forest, what does it matter if the number of trees in the US remains the same?


"Third World Nations are in fact BIGGER polluters than the U.S."
First of all, NOT true. Secondly, Third World Nations r in the industrial phase all western countries went through. They should b encouraged, but they have lots of big problems to deal with. Thirdly, a US citizen causes 2 or 3 times as much pollution as a citizen of any other develloped country. All that is asked 4 is a equal effort of all developed countries.

"We can feed the world over but tyrants in African regimes are starving their own people."
Any id how many people r starving rite now in the good old usa? The situation in Africa is xtremely complex, and the only way of improving this situation is stimulating developpement and democracy.

"The Earth Summit folks are hypocritically chowing down on Foie de Gros, oysters, caviar, etc in Johannesburg while blocks away Africans are in absolute squalor. "
U used the 'folks'-word! Running 4 president:lol:? Anyweez, at least they r present, and probably none of them will bomb a deal all others agree on.

Get some perspective!

A South African perspective on things in Joburg at the moment (not mine by the way!)



Looks like someone is enjoying summit

bonojr said:

I'm not one to blame the US for everything, only for the things they are actually responsible for and that includes this topic. no agenda whatsoever on my side.



greenpeace has indeed their own version of the truth. they are known to falsify evidence and that's why i do support their ideas, I usually do not support their actions and will never contribute money to them.

But: one falsified photo does not mean the fact that glaciers are melting is not happening.



of course there are climatic changes whivch have nothing to do with humanity. ice ages and hot periods alternate over the course of 1000s of years, but I recently saw several reports which showed that the current global warming is increasing more than it should. It is a subject which is almost impossible to proof scientifically due to the large time periods involved. But most scientists agree that the trend is worrysome.



the world is biger than the US. Brazilian, Indonesian and African rainforests are slinking in an alarming rate. Planting new ones in the jungles doesn't work, since the soil is too poor to facilitate fast growing of trees. in the us this is different: different soil, different eather and different trees!



but the US is also not willing to assist the poor countries. saying someone lese is worse than you is no excuse to not clean up your own act.



this is too much a generalisation. not every country is like this. many african countries make a profound effort to make things better, but due to their high denbts to the rich countries they are almost without any financial possibilities to do so. This is where the US and other countries could and should help. don;t let a fewbad governments spoil it for the rest.



true, but nor eason to stay away i think. I think Bush is chowing down on all kinds of fancy food and playing golf in his holiday resort in the US at the same time.



conservative truth?
truth is truth, neither conservative, progressive or whatever..

herbthe4 said:

The fact that we have more forest land than before come from the Competitive Enterprise Institute. Cei.org We've learned how to put out forest fires, and well. Used to be, lightening hit, and long ago 50 million acres of forest fire were destroyed each year.

In addition, despite the cries of the environmental ditzies at Sierra Club, the loggers are not 'attacking' the virgin, the much older and larger trees because there is no longer a market for them. As stated in the beginning, certain groups have an agenda. It's not about the environment, trust me. It's about gaining their own power and control. They don't work for a living, they collect contributions, 60% usually which go to them; in addition their bureaucratic rules and lawsuits are partially to blame for the wildfires that burned 6 million acres this summer.

Let me state it again: THESE GROUPS ARE SHILLS FOR THE DEMOCRATS. Gee, that's funny, the GREENS don't scream and moan when Dem Senator Daschle authorizes logging for much needed thinning of the forests in his home state of South Dakota to help against forest fires, while hypocritically denying it on the other hand for the rest of America.

If one continues reading doom and gloom liberal lies like ANGRY WHITE MEN (which it preaches, despite denying either party affiliation) by the bubble boy you'll take a permanent coffee-break out an 8th floor window.

One very important thing to do when citing "facts" - especially those that support a belief system you've already subscribed to and are striving to reinforce - is to ALWAYS follow the money trail that financed the discoveries you're relating and the opinions they expouse.

As I age, I regrettably begin to conclude, with greater and greater regularity, that way too many answers to questions that seemed unanswerable can be addressed by FOLLOWING THE MONEY.

Always do this. It shines light into places that may might be better off unilluminated, crushes with prejudice any thoughts you had born out of idealism, and generally will flat scare the shit out of you. The truth most often does.

"Beleive half of what you see
Some or none of what you hear"

bonojr said:

And you wonder why the "poorer" nations want to blow up the world trade centre? Your exact attitude is a contribution. When you drop this "greatness" or share this "greatness" fairly, then you can stop looking over your shoulder for the next attack.

SquirrelMeat said:

You're completely out of line pal. Take a breather, grab some oxygen. No one is to blame but the perpetrators. This "greatness" happens to make quite a few jealous, I know. Envy and jealousy of a rich person, a popular person is likewise human nature. But your statement that the cause of the attack was America not distributing the wealth to all the cry babies, guilt-trip inciters, and incompetents from other countries was echoed by Bill Clinton in speeches as well on his "Look at Me" tour. All of which of course is sheer lunacy. Hey, I hear there's a big rave coming in Baghdad, it's gonna be a BLAST...

"We don't inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it
from our children", Antoine de St Exupery (a french "crybaby")