For those of you who don’t know I am a biochemical research scientist. I have prided myself on the fact that I have always avoided any form of animal testing in the work that I do. I have always felt that it is rather un-scientific to just stick a chemical in an animal and “see what happens” after all there are always alternative methods to explore.

Until now.

I suppose that I am lucky to have come this far but it is almost impossible to progress with some of my projects without resorting to using animal models. It’s not like I am out of ideas but the projects have progressed beyond bench experimentation and will only create the interest they deserve from the wider scientific community if I move into animals.

Is it any more acceptable if I don’t actually do the work myself?
Do I stick to my principals and leave projects I have worked 12 years towards?

I am interested to know what you all think, the wider, more compassionate org community.

IMHO, it isn't any more acceptable if you don't actually do the work yourself. Just something to think about...there is already so much suffering in the world...why trade one kind for another...

applekisses said:

I know, but then why am I doing what I do. Very little of my work will ever get translated to benefit humans without going through animals. I have never really thought about what I would do when there was no more choice?

Plus I have the added point that if I don't someone else will anyway without my association.

PREDOMINANT said:

What are you working on currently?

it's difficult to apply my personal morals and ethics to another person's situation, because i think ultimately every person is completely responsible for their own boundaries and limits, and i don't feel quite right imposing my perspective on someone else. of course i would walk away from it. but i don't have your background, and i don't do what you do. if i did, i might have other considerations. if it were an acceptable option in your profession to across-the-board refuse experimenting on animals as a matter of personal conviction, would it be an easier decision for you to make? maybe that's a redundant question...

applekisses said:

Cancer therapies

I think Anx is right in that only you can answer the question for yourself. It's undoubtedly a tough one.
Sorry I can't be of more help. lol.

Anx said:

I have got by so far, but can I progress further? Anything is possible, but at what expense?

Do I put my personal morals before human benefit and progreession of science. Is it ethical for me not to progress, is it my duty?

The thing that gets me most is that there are no guarantees. If I could say “ok sacrifice 6 mice and 1000 people will benefit” I at least would have something tangible to decide. But certainty is a big word for a scientist.

What are the possible benefits that you hope to gain by the research?


IMO You have to weigh the "evil" of the animal testing against the benefits to be gained by humans and possibly other animals. I have a relative who was born with Transpostion of the great arteries in his heart. He would not be alive today if there was no animal testing done for heart defects. Actually they said he would only live 18 years or so and he's 25 and going strong.

I hate the idea of testing on animals but if it's done with as much compassion as possible it can lead to great things.
If animal testing must be done you might as well stay with your projects and see them through to the end. I can understand why you feel conflicted though.

PREDOMINANT said:

Yikes...

Well, as Anx is, I'm finding it very difficult to get past my personal convictions on this. Even when I worked at the university, I always opposed the use of animals in research. I know the importance of research and the competition that goes with the territory...so I do understand the struggle you're dealing with, but personally, I just couldn't do it.

PREDOMINANT said:

that IS a dilemna. someone i know works with animal testing. i see the value of his research, and that it ultimately saves lives. i also see that innocent animals are being used to death without their consent.

personally, i wish we could use humans as test subjects, from a pool of highly-paid volunteers.

one thing to remember is: hundreds of thousands of sentient animals are inhumanely slaughtered every single day to support an obese american population's appetite for mcnuggets, arbys and bacon cheeseburgers.

is that "right" when animal research is "wrong"??

is killing animals for food or research wrong in the context of a planet where every living thing deprives another living thing of life in order to live?


i do not know what the answer is. i believe that intent matters a lot. i.e., if you torture a living creature to death for fun, that is wrong.

it's up to your conscience and what you can live with. sorry you must face this

IrresistibleB1tch said:

I really feel that that is the case, not that animal testing is encouraged but that to "prove" a response it must first be tested in a live model. The alternative is humans, with which I agree but would be hard to justify without first having tested on mice or rats. The powers that be are dificult to avoid.

I will have a good read of the jh website. I remember meeting a Scientist from there a few years ago I have his card somewhere. Thanks for the reminder.

They have a conference in Tokyo next year too Japan with my conscience intact

PREDOMINANT said:

keep us posted!

applekisses said:

Me too, which is why a part of me thinks if I just get somebody else to do the animal work.....?

Hardly leaves me guilt free.

XxAxX said:

I am as well...I hope you make the right decision for all involved.

XxAxX said:

Thank you for your sympathy, the problem is the ballance, I have know realistic way of knowing that this WILL be beneficial, thats why it's an experiment.

IrresistibleB1tch said:

I will, thanks for info.

PREDOMINANT said:

That is so important, not just for cancer patients and their families but for so many other people who have diseases that you can possibly help.
I have RA and have taken Methotrexate for a long time now and am currently taking Humira (Adalimumab) with it. These drugs have put the disease in remission and have given me quality of life that would have been impossible a few years ago. The benefits to society is that I'm no longer on disability and can support myself which I would not have been able to do without these drugs. Multiply that success story by millions. I would love to personally thank each person who had a part in developing these treatments.

Weigh the options very carefully and make your decision.

Predominant

I congratulate you on your ethics and the way you have given serious thought to your options. That you are concerned about not causing animals unnecessary suffering really is admirable.

The only advice I can give is not to compromise your principles. However, if you believe that you have no other options regarding your research work and that at some stage it will be carried forward regardless of whether or not you're involved, then perhaps it is better that someone like you performs or sanctions the tests as you can at least minimise any suffering.

I really don't agree with animal testing on any level as I don't believe that one life is more precious than another however I and my family have benefitted from drugs that I know will have been tested on animals at some stage. So it's very difficult to stay detached from the debate and to not be hypocritical.

As Anx said, it's a matter of perspective and personal experience. I would say "no" to the testing but if it has to happen and cannot be prevented then I would rather someone like you authorise it because it's clear that you do not want to sanction suffering of any kind.

Good luck with making your decision.

Reincarnate said:

Wow, thank you very much for the humbling complement and an alternative perspective.

Over the last few moments I have been giving some thought to developing a new alternative model to using mice. Thanks to IB's link and orgers comments. I will try and source some funding to have a play, spend a few years trying to make an alternative, I am not beaten yet. Then maybe the model will not only benefit humans but perhaps mice too.

PREDOMINANT said:

need a grant writer?!

PREDOMINANT said:

Wow - that would be truly amazing. I really hope you can pull it off - I'm so rooting for you on this!

for you and for IB ... two minds really can be better than one sometimes!

IrresistibleB1tch said:

Or someone to do your public relations?

applekisses said:

Very good topic

It's hard, but in my opinion sometimes necessary to get the results you need.
As long as you never stop treating the animal with respect, and remember it's a living creature.
Don't make it suffer needlessly, don't reduce costs on their quality of life (do I make sense??)


Don't make it like this.

And make sure they have a wonderful life afterwards like these lab rabits.

IrresistibleB1tch said:

I usually do this kind of thing alone but if you are intrested in colaboating then I would apreciate your literary and edidting skills

The deadline for 2007/8 was in March, I am not sure they will have another round of applications this year, however going by previous years it looks like 2008/9 applications will be spring 2007 - and that is doable!!

applekisses said:

Sure!

The more the merrier!

As long as none of you need paying!

PREDOMINANT said:

You're a hero Steve.

hey Steve ...first, let me echo Ivy in saying you're a hero for doing this. little Leo will be very proud of his Dad

You know of what I was born with, so you know that without research we/I wouldn't have anywhere near the knowledge and understanding of it that we do today. Genetic research, as far as I'm aware anyway, includes a lot of animal experimentation sadly I have no idea what the difference between Biochemical research and Genetic Research is or if they mesh at all but Cancer is an evil evil evil thing and if we have good people like yourself behind finding more info and hopefully eventually leading to a cure (which I firmly still believe is out there in nature somewhere - but maybe it will take scientists to find it) then that's what we need to do. I think most people who have seen and/or looked after loved ones with Cancer will agree

good luck hon keep us updated