Imago said:

You went to bars in Krabi? Why?

Do they even have bars in that town? Do you mean Ao Nang?

Common practice? Steady. I hear there's an anchor job open for you at Fox News.

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[Edited 9/7/06 6:26am]

Natisse said:

Perhaps you should come out here before passing judgment?

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[Edited 9/7/06 6:24am]

Fauxie said:

Like Imago said, it's very common in Krabi Province and Phuket. I've been there twice and visited the gibbon sanctuary they have there. I've seen video footage and photos of it and it's terrible. They dress them up in dresses and put makeup on them and chain them to the bar. I just broke down crying. The gibbons that are used to pose with tourists for photos are also used in this way. The people who do this are very aware that it's illegal, but the local police just turn the other way and let it happen. It's up tot he tourists to report them, and if they don't do that, it will keep happening.

But they have wonderful people from all over the world that volunteer there to help bring gibbons in and try ot rehabilitate them back into the wild, although in most cases it doesn't work since they are scarred for life after these experiences and become very hostile. The majority of them will never be released back into the wild. They do have a pretty good facility there though (in Phuket).

I've "adopted" some of the gibbons there, which is all I could really do. It means you donate money and are kept up to date on the status of your gibbon. I totally wanted to move there and be a volunteer, but sometimes other things in life get in the way of packing up and moving to Thailand for that purpose.

Oh, here's a link about it:

http://www.gibbonproject.org/index.htm


Check out the adoption page. They all have indivdual stories about how they came to be in the sanctuary. Very sad.
[Edited 9/7/06 6:33am]

minneapolisgenius said:

It's great you took the chance of visiting here, you brave soul, considering the apparent myriad of reasons to not visit.

But it's great you're trying to make a difference. For my part I must confess I've never been so actively involved, but have always supported the places dedicated to helping rather exploiting the animals (specific crocodile and snake farms, King's turtle farm etc.)

I hated some of the things I saw on Koh Samui with the elephants there.

The problem is the tourists, unfortunately. The reason I get a little narky about some of the comments is not because I don't think it's going on (though I resent the implication that Thais in general accept it and willingly allow it - it's the 'paedophile paradise' thread all over again). It's just that for a developing country where a high percentage of the people are poor, money means something altogether different to how we regard it (and we regard it with great importance!). If tourists have a conscience and behave as they should, there is no problem.

It just seems absurd that someone would choose not to visit this beautiful country based on this kind of relatively small-scale thing. It's an important issue, yes, but says nothing about Thai people in general and their attitude towards animals. Nothing whatsoever. It says a lot about a country's economy and the quality of life of some of its people and the integrity of some of the people who visit.


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[Edited 9/7/06 6:44am]

Fauxie said:

hey hey hey... Nick please don't take that personally. it's no secret knowledge that culture in southeast Asia does no wonders for wildlife I won't lie it's put me off because I would want to visit and be able to respect the culture and hold me tongue - something I honestly don't think I could do if I ever, say, went to Tokyo to one of the top restaurants (supposedly) and the delicacy is a live Monkey that you choose and it's killed right there at the table with the brains as a delicacy. (true story by the way someone I know). They would put me in Jail for what I would do if I ever saw that...

that, however, is no reflection on you personally so please don't take it that way hon

Fauxie said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not some great animal rights activist or anything. In my dreams maybe, but sometimes other things in life take precedence, and I WISH I were more involved than I really am.

The bottom line is, I went to Thailand as a tourist as well of course. Some of the tourists that go there though just sicken me. No regard or respect for the people, animals, or nature. I've heard about the elephant treatment on Koh Samui though.

I've been to Kao Sok National Park many years ago, and they have elephant rides as well. I was really concerned about the treatment of the elephants there, but after watching their owners and how they handle them, they really seemd to treat them with love and seemed pretty spoiled actually. Although this was years ago and we were the only ones staying in that particular area of the jungle. There was a new "treehouse" lodge that had opened up,and we stayed in a tree house with no electricity. It was amazing and there were monkeys everywhere and the wildlife was amazing. Unfortunately, there are now many more "copycat" lodges in the same are and it's even being featured in all the package-deal travel brochures. I think I would very very disappointed if I went back now. I'm sure it's overrun w/ tourists now.

I love Thailand. I love the people, the culture, the food, the nature. I'd love to go back again, but it really is getting more and more developed and crowded with tourists. I'd just be another one then.

Natisse said:

I know where you're coming from, Natisse, of course, but to be honest, you're better off staying away then. The thing is, Thailand is only one country in South East Asia (Japan, incidentally, not being a part of it) and so specifics are needed in order to avoid gross generalisations. Additionally, a little research with a negative mindset into any country would bring up all manner of horrible practices in regards to animals. I wonder if you so enthusiastically looked for positive evidence of conservation and protection of rare species. Again, I'm not saying it doesn't happen here, and I'm certainly not saying it should be swept under the carpet or ignored, but for all that I'm glad I never let that keep me away from this country as I would've missed out on a lot. As always, what you hear and read doesn't tell the half of it, especially if you're approaching something like this from a particular perspective with a specific angle in mind. Visit the country, see everything there is to see, then make up your mind. Don't even make up your mind. Just take it in. It is what it is, and for many reasons, with those reasons being perhaps slightly different to what one might initially think.

p.s. I still love ya to bits, so no worries there.

Fauxie said:

you're absolutely right... I say the same to others about Australia when they say they won't visit because of the wildlife there

to be fair, I've never heard a bad word about it... everyone I know who has travelled there has absolutely loved it

thank you for being patient

How manipulative and utterly repulsive of the media it was 2 place a photo of "the Crocodile HUNTER' with President George W Bush on the front page of our newspaper,
claiming he and his wife were saddened by Steve Irwins passing and were praying 4 him and his family...
I hope he says a prayer 4 each and every 1 of the soldiers and civilians that die as a direct result of their actions, as well as their families...that oughta keep him busy 4 the rest of our lifetimes.

Natisse said:

I've since decided koalas are worth big spiders

susannah said:

lol... hon when I come to Edinburgh I will tell you all about the wildlife in Australia - you will see that it's nothing to be afraid of and everything to be respected and admired. you'd love it out there

minneapolisgenius said:

Yes, what can you do? I'm essentially a tourist, so part of the problem. Just looking at things from the backpackers point of view, looking for that perfect beach (as was the dream in the mid-90s and around the time 'The Beach' came out), it's all going wrong. As you probably know, Koh Samui, just 5 or 6 years ago, had no buildings with more than 3 storeys, and most buildings were only 1. There were no 7elevens, just a few resort areas, with one main road going around the island. The main 'town', Chaweng, was a strip of beach huts, bars and small shops stretching probably only a few hundred metres. Now there are large concrete hotels, an airport, and God knows what else. Koh Phangan was always a good 5-10 years behind, and aside from Had Rin, only had corner shops, some crap roads and a few beach huts. Even that island is now being built up. Koh Tao had electricity black-outs daily, but I'm sure now there are 7elevens and all manner of resorts. This all has an impact on the wildlife and the treatment of it. Tourism is such a huge source of revenue now for this country. I just wish they would devote more time and money to the conservation of these areas, and not just the national parks in less tourist-attracting places. Some of the national parks are just incredible, but being in kinda middling non-descript parts of the country they're (perhaps thankfully) somewhat overlooked. Meanwhile, amazing natural beauties like the islands are just indiscriminantly reamed. What to do?

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[Edited 9/7/06 7:10am]

Natisse said:

ok, as long as there are koalas involved

There are koalas in Edinburgh zoo now and also baby lions, I keep saying to my Mum "noones taken me to the zoo yet!!"

susannah said:

aww well you know who just LOOOOOVES zoo's?

meanwhile... we should take this talk elsewhere this is Steve's thread

Natisse said:

orgnote!

Steve

Fauxie said:

We never went to Koh Samui because we originally went to go rock climbing, and Krabi is where you go to do that. Rai Leh Bay to be exact (which is close to Ao Nang). We went on the recommendation of my sister and her husband who had been there a couple of years before we went. So when we went, it was still pretty small and not so developed. There was one tiny place you could get "real" coffee in the mornings, and a couple of rasta bars, and of course climbing places. We stayed in thatched-roof huts that were full of cockroaches, centipedes, spiders, and rats and it was still one of the best experiences of my life. And the best "restaurant" EVER. Cocos. We met all the staff and family that owned it and the food was just amazing.

So a few years later, we decde to all go together: me and my husband, my sister and brother-in-law, his sister, and two of their friends. They're all divers and rock climbers so we wanted to go to Krabi Province again. When my sister Vanessa and her husband got off the boat w/ us onto Rai Leh Bay, they were shocked. It had become so over-developed, and it was even something that had changed since I had been there. Cocos was gone, and there were German tourists everywhere. Most of the climbers had left. We still managed to have a blast, but it was sort of sad at the same time.

We talked to many of the locals and they said Cocos was bought out and that's what happened to all the rasta bars and other little places we had known. Bought out by Thai and Chinese mafia in fact. I guess they are running everything in Southern Thailand and Malaysia now. We actually stayed at this one place near Phuket where none of the tourists went, and it was run by the mafia there. They had guys walking around the grounds with machine guns all the time.

Oh, one of the coolest places we went though was this tiny Muslim island called Ko Yao Noi. We stayed in wooden cabins on the water and it was the only place for tourists to stay on the whole island. You could rent scooters and drive around the island and visit the daily market. There are not so many tourists there because the beach is all rocks. Sharp rocks. So that deters them, which was a good thing. I wonder if it's still the same now.
[Edited 9/7/06 7:23am]

NDRU said:

Even stranger that experts told that these kinda attacks from that specimen to people most RARELY happen .
Only if they're driven in panic .
But Steve was always very daring and approaching fearlessly dangerous animals , maybe that was the case here

R.I. Steve
Much strength to his family and friends
.
.
.
[Edited 9/7/06 7:42am]

JackieBlue said:

Well said. I am also appalled and a bit bother by some of insensitive comments on this thread too. I nearly cry just by watching how he smiled and also explained about the animals when they was talking about him on Inside Edition
yesterday. And I seen his father was on expressing his love for Steve and that he is going to continue the legacy that his son left and called him his best mate.
Cool if you dont like his show but be more respect at least to him and his family. How would you guys feel if these rude comments that I been hearing about his death be made at your loss love ones? I watched his show a few times too and this man has ulmost love for animals despite the risk and dangers he faced. But overall my heart goes out to the wife and his kids who isn't going to have a daddy watching them growing up.

Very sad news. I feel so bad for his wife and young kids.

Steve was great. I always enjoyed watching him on tv.

He will be missed by many.

kisscamille said:

All very nicely put!

FIML said:

Let's keep things in perspective okay...?

MartyMcFly said:

I'm not praying for him either.

minneapolisgenius said:

People should be praying to me - not for me!