i was actually surprised that i liked the film too.
it was interesting to notice the lead character reading Dostoyevski's Crime and Punishment early on in the film, because the film basically plays out in the same way. The main character thinks of himself as somehow beyond the herd morality, kills two women, and then realizes a little differently.

It also has the Dostoyevskian theme about the criminal unconsciously seeking to be found out and punished.

SO: when the ring bounces one way rather then the other it turns out that his punishment is to go without punishment, -apropos the lead's very own confession during his dream sequence where he is haunted by his victim that the worst thing that could happen to him is that he goes uncaught and unpunished)

HiinEnkelte said:

The lead character IS beyond the herd morality! His existence/path is actually simple. The haunting seemed ineffective. Does he really realize anything? I'll have to watch the ending again.

Nothing comes from nothing (even your precious Hitchcock). And I'd love to know which "classic standup comedy" you think is an influence in Allen's films. But, of course, this is all incidental. We're discussing Match Point, right? Not Allen's entire oeuvre.


And just what "new emotions" did Hitchcock's films generate?


Dude, you are really reaching to make all the pieces fit into your little thesis.

Match Point shares a major thematic concern with Crimes and both flicks illustrate this theme via a murder where the killer gets away scott-free. I'd say that's enough to qualify the former as owing much to the latter.

You keep insisting it's some kind of Hitchcock homage (intentional or not), but Allen outlines the significant difference between the sort of film he's made w/Match Point and Hitchcock's work in the quote I've cited earlier. Any stylistic similarities are coincidental and trivial. You're missing the Raison d'Etre Forest for the Artsy-Fartsy trees.

ufoclub said:

You misunderstand Hiin's point in much the same way you misunderstand the movie. I would suggest going back and watching the whole flick again.

Hi, Hiin! Glad to hear you liked it. What shakes?

ufoclub said:

well like crimes and misdemeanors, Woody Allen doesn't want to beat us over the head with his moralizing, and i often think that Allen himself is tempted by such ideologies of meaninglessness, or existential despair such as litter the films of his hero Ingmar Bergman. I do think we are to to see though that the lead character is certainly not really beyond Good and Evil even though for most of the film he may think that he is.



he was unlucky enough to be "lucky enough" to have the coin bounce in such a way that he will never truly have to atone for his crimes.

HiinEnkelte said:[quote]

ufoclub said:

how is he unlucky?

Ace said:

Hey Ace!! good to hear that you are glad that i liked it
nothin' shakin' but the bacon.

you turned into a blonde chica or what? what happened to the pensive young man that i knew as Ace?
(oh well, i guess i turned into an old 18th century philosopher with a mad piercing gaze )

ufoclub said:

he got away with his crime, ...by something as random yet decisive as when a tennis ball hits the net and pops up only to fatefully fall on one side or the other.

HiinEnkelte said:

It's Janelle from Big Brother, a show which I think you'd dig, due to the game within's complex nature. Ever seen it?

Ace said:

nope, but now i'll keep my eye open for it.

Ace said:

What date is that interview with Woody allen from?

Have you tried to google the hitchcock matchpoint connection? since our debate I have, and find I'm not too lonely.

I think you might be blinded by artsy fartsy reading into a clinically refined and simple movie like Matchpoint (is it any more complicated than your average Grimm fairytale?). Have you not noticed that it is visually completely different than ANY other woody allen movie? Seriously, you're assertion of woody Allen being deeper than Hitchcock means you believe that shooting a staged intellectual discussion is deeper than creating an intellectual "discussion" between viewer and medium through editing and shot content/sequence. Don't be misled by one literal plot thread of a "murder after an affair", don't ignore the fact that the surrounding characters, plot, mood, shot style, humor, and consequence to the character's evolution are completely different. "Crimes" is a detailed study of the psychological tangles and complications, whereas Matchpoint is like watching a remorseless shark eating. You don't see it? And, Woody allen is WRONG in his assesment of Hitchcock.

If you don't recognize that Hitchcock is the creater of cinematic vocabulary/stylistic/content/character purpose so engaging and powerful that they are now cliche and prevelant emotional cues, then... well.... open your eyes and ears!

Look at this synopsis written by regular people. Look at what most of the body is devoted to...

"After realizing that he does not have what it takes to become a successful professional tennis player, Chris Wilton (Jonathan Rhys-Meyers) takes a job as a tennis coach at Queens Tennis Club. He befriends Tom (Matthew Goode), a rich young playboy, and he begins a somewhat passionless relationship with Tom's sister, Chloe (Emily Mortimer), whom he describes as "sweet." They are both members of the wealthy Hewett family, headed by father Alec (played by Brian Cox) and mother Eleanor (Penelope Wilton).

Wilton is immediately as drawn to Tom's fiancée, actress Nola Rice (Scarlett Johansson), as she is to him. The two act on this mutual attraction, though Nola later tells him nothing can come of it.

Some time later, Chris has married Chloe, with a promising career as a businessman in her father's firm. After discovering that Tom and Nola have broken up, he attempts to locate her and finally bumps into her at Tate Modern. He begins a clandestine affair with her; one that soon leads to Nola's news that she is pregnant. While his passion for Nola remains strong, his whole life is so dependent upon the wealthy family that has taken him under their wing, that for a while he tries to have it all – a situation that Nola is increasingly unable to tolerate. Nola demands that he talk to Chloe about the situation and tells Chris that if he doesn't talk to Chloe, she will.

Chris feels cornered into a desperate situation – which includes a close call during which Nola almost reveals their affair. After discussing the matter with a trusted friend and former tennis partner, he decides that he wishes to maintain his comfortable life with Chloe, even though, for that purpose, he feels compelled to kill Nola.

At this point, a film that was mostly a drama about Chris and his relationships with and dependencies on the Hewett family becomes a thriller.

His plan is to make Nola's death look like a drug-related crime – which leads him to also target Nola's neighbor (played by Margaret Tyzack). Surreptitiously, he takes a hunting gun from his father-in-law's household. He leaves work, pretending to be going out to play tennis, but actually taking the disassembled hunting gun in a large sports bag. After gaining entry to the elderly landlady's apartment, he assembles the hunting gun while she is in another room, kills her in cold blood, and takes her medication and jewelry—among other possessions—putting them all in his bag. Then, he waits for Nola to arrive from work and kills her on the landing just outside her apartment – making it appear that she has disturbed the murderer's getaway.

As planned, he strengthens his alibi by meeting his wife at the theater to attend an Andrew Lloyd Webber musical (The Woman in White) right after the murders.

Wilton deposits his bag with the disassembled hunting gun and the stolen goods at the cloakroom of the theater where he joins his wife. After the musical, he brings it home. Later, when they visit his in-laws, he returns the hunting gun. He leaves the bag in the storage room, stuffs the stolen goods into his pockets, and rejoins the family gathering. Later, he throws the stolen goods into the river. One item, though—a gold ring—falls first against the railing, and then onto the embankment, rather than into the river as intended. The movie shows this dramatically as an analogy of the tennis ball hitting the top of the net.

As Wilton had hoped, the police (Steve Pemberton, Ewen Bremner, James Nesbitt) take it as primarily a drug murder of the neighbor, with the additional murder of Nola the result of her happening to pass by. During and after the crimes several risky situations occur, which could have revealed Chris' involvement. However, each time Chris gets lucky.

Nola's diary repeatedly references Chris' affair with her – which makes him an obvious suspect, so the police ask him to come to the station for questioning. Unaware of the diary, he first lies that he has not seen Nola much lately, but he is able to talk his way out of any initial suspicions by quickly admitting to the affair and begging them to keep his wife (and her family) out of it. His story is plausible enough for them to give him the benefit of the doubt. Although one police officer's theory corresponds to what actually happened, his colleague discards it as too unlikely.

The gold ring that Chris left on the embankment, with an engraving tying it to his crime, is fortuitously discovered by a drug addict who has it in his possession when he is found dead in the same neighborhood, making the ring the piece of evidence that saves Chris, rather than condemning him, as the audience was led to believe earlier."

Is Ace not aware of Woody Allen's background? His normal main character always seem to be doing a traditional standup comedic monologue as they narrarate, converse, and work through the course of the narrative. Bringing in stream of conscious subjects and ending in witty punchlines.

"At nineteen, he started writing scripts for The Ed Sullivan Show, The Tonight Show, Caesar's Hour and others.[4] It was while writing for Sid Caesar that Allen worked alongside Danny Simon, whom Allen credits for helping him to better structure his writing style. Allen started writing prose and plays, and in 1960, started a new career as a stand-up comedian and also began writing for the popular Candid Camera television show, even appearing in some episodes. Together with his managers he turned his weaknesses into his strengths and developed the neurotic, nervous, and shy figure famous from his later movies. He soon became an immensely popular comedian and appeared frequently in nightclubs and on television.

Examples of Allen's standup act can be heard on the album Standup Comic, including the famous routine wherein Allen describes bringing a live moose to a costume party. The moose comes in second in the costume contest to the Berkowitzes, a couple in a moose costume. Occasionally, in his standup act, he referred to himself as "Heywood Allen," but it is not clear whether he ever used this form officially in either his professional or personal life."

Because it is not a standard Woody film. This will be one of three London based films. Woody has this love affair with England now.

Let's recap, shall we?:



ufoclub: Match Point isn't anything at all like Crimes & Misdemeanors! It's simply a Hitchcockian thriller! And because there's no comedy, it's a departure for Woody Allen!

Ace: They share a major theme and both utilize the same key plot point to illustrate that theme. Match Point is much deeper than a Hitchcock flick and Allen's made several films without comedy before.

ufoclub: (buncha pretentious mumbo-jumbo designed to divert attention from the fact that his original statements are wrong).

2freaky4church1 said:

kidelrich said:

Not saying you're wrong, however comma . . .



Wouldn't you if you were Woody Allen?

shausler said:

i love the talented mr ripley...i watched it becuz of jude law (i started drooling over him after seeing gattaca ) its one of my favorite movies actually

namepeace said:

I like her better when she's either dressed normally for a part or glamorous for an awards show. But yes. May she be in all of his films from this point on, and I will not miss a single one.

kidelrich said:

I do too. I just found this pic and figured it would make a point! It made an impression on me for sure.

She is a great actress. And she's so lovely, she'd make me wanna get a job even if she were wearing sackcloth.

Happy Orging.