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Printablesextonseven said: meow85 said: Hey sextonseven -did the chip make him cry? j/k  I'd cry if someone took away the first meal I was about to have in several months.  
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sextonseven said: I still think werewolves retain their humanity unlike vampires. That answer is easy. People run the planet, therefore what we say goes. If pigs were clearly in control of the world, then I would stop eating them. But is it really any different? We are capable of eating pigs, many of us seem to think they're tasty, and provided we don't gorge ourselves they're a fairly healthy food source as well. Same goes for vamps take on humans. Now are they evil just for eating something that they can eat and prefer to, or do we just see them as evil because we're the food? I think it's because we're the food. If we were, say, dogs or something else rarely eaten by them, I don't think we'd be so quick to declare the undead evil. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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meow85 said: sextonseven said: I still think werewolves retain their humanity unlike vampires. That answer is easy. People run the planet, therefore what we say goes. If pigs were clearly in control of the world, then I would stop eating them. But is it really any different? We are capable of eating pigs, many of us seem to think they're tasty, and provided we don't gorge ourselves they're a fairly healthy food source as well. Same goes for vamps take on humans. Now are they evil just for eating something that they can eat and prefer to, or do we just see them as evil because we're the food? I think it's because we're the food. If we were, say, dogs or something else rarely eaten by them, I don't think we'd be so quick to declare the undead evil. They're evil because the show has explicitly outlined them as *DEMONS* with an *EVIL* supernatural origin. It's as simple as that. There has to be good and there has to be evil for it to work. Pansy-ass politically correct rationalizing does no good in super-hero morality plays, which is what the show is. Again, there has to be good and there has to be evil for it to work, and for there to be a point. That's why I think the Buffy/Spike relationship didn't work (at least not until S7, when it was, for all intents and purposes over), no matter how much some people loved it, because there was no moral to it. With Angel, it was the bad boy who's tortured over his past (because he had a soul). With Spike, it was just a bad boy. She knew she shouldn't be with him, she didn't want to be with him, but she didn't do anything to change it, to better herself. I suppose you could say that there was a moral to it, in that he tried to rape her, but from a Buffy standpoint, the whole thing just didn't work and brought the character to a low. I think that's the problem with Season 6 in general. It's too dark. I know "Life was the Big Bad" but you know, who in the hell was watching this show to see something so miserable played out week after week with no end in sight? I think Joss & co. became enamoured of the idea that the show was "art" and "important" so they responded by making it as dark and arty and important as they could and pretty much sunk the whole thing. People are taking in entertainment like Buffy as an escape. They enjoy seeing real life metaphors played out in the context of the Buffy universe, not just watching miserable shit happen week in and week out. What happened to the metaphor? That's when the show really clicked. The first 3 seasons (and 4 or 5, to a bit lesser extent), they presented real life situations through the metaphor of demons and the Hellmouth. In S6, it was all just real life. And who the hell needs that from Buffy? Sorry, that went off into a bit of a rant. | |
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sextonseven said: That answer is easy. People run the planet, therefore what we say goes. If pigs were clearly in control of the world, then I would stop eating them.
Pigs don't control the world? How do you explain congress? 
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meow85 said: Well, the show says otherwise, so that's what I'm going by.
Oz looked and acted pretty human to me. Vampires don't. But is it really any different? We are capable of eating pigs, many of us seem to think they're tasty, and provided we don't gorge ourselves they're a fairly healthy food source as well. Same goes for vamps take on humans. Now are they evil just for eating something that they can eat and prefer to, or do we just see them as evil because we're the food?
I think it's because we're the food. If we were, say, dogs or something else rarely eaten by them, I don't think we'd be so quick to declare the undead evil. It's different because we are in control. If we were dogs and we saw vampires feasting on people who are responsible for our well-being, they would be just as evil. | |
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Dayspring said: meow85 said: But is it really any different? We are capable of eating pigs, many of us seem to think they're tasty, and provided we don't gorge ourselves they're a fairly healthy food source as well. Same goes for vamps take on humans. Now are they evil just for eating something that they can eat and prefer to, or do we just see them as evil because we're the food? I think it's because we're the food. If we were, say, dogs or something else rarely eaten by them, I don't think we'd be so quick to declare the undead evil. They're evil because the show has explicitly outlined them as *DEMONS* with an *EVIL* supernatural origin. It's as simple as that. There has to be good and there has to be evil for it to work. Pansy-ass politically correct rationalizing does no good in super-hero morality plays, which is what the show is. Again, there has to be good and there has to be evil for it to work, and for there to be a point. That's why I think the Buffy/Spike relationship didn't work (at least not until S7, when it was, for all intents and purposes over), no matter how much some people loved it, because there was no moral to it. With Angel, it was the bad boy who's tortured over his past (because he had a soul). With Spike, it was just a bad boy. She knew she shouldn't be with him, she didn't want to be with him, but she didn't do anything to change it, to better herself. I suppose you could say that there was a moral to it, in that he tried to rape her, but from a Buffy standpoint, the whole thing just didn't work and brought the character to a low. I think that's the problem with Season 6 in general. It's too dark. I know "Life was the Big Bad" but you know, who in the hell was watching this show to see something so miserable played out week after week with no end in sight? I think Joss & co. became enamoured of the idea that the show was "art" and "important" so they responded by making it as dark and arty and important as they could and pretty much sunk the whole thing. People are taking in entertainment like Buffy as an escape. They enjoy seeing real life metaphors played out in the context of the Buffy universe, not just watching miserable shit happen week in and week out. What happened to the metaphor? That's when the show really clicked. The first 3 seasons (and 4 or 5, to a bit lesser extent), they presented real life situations through the metaphor of demons and the Hellmouth. In S6, it was all just real life. And who the hell needs that from Buffy? Sorry, that went off into a bit of a rant. But the line between good and evil is nto always so clear. Rarely so in Buffy and even less often in real life. Knew she shouldn't be with him, said she didn't want to eb with him, but constantly went to him for sex. Beat the shit out of him and verbally knocked him down more times than I could be bothered counting. But we're supposed to feel sorry for Buffy? The "Why do I let him do this to me" girl? Sorry, can't get with that. Season 6 made me hate Buffy. Don't get me wrong, I'm not some nutter Spike fangirl who's blinded by the glory of James Marsters cheekbones. Watching our hero repeatedly treat any of the other characters like shit for an entire season would've made me think of her as one evil fucking bitch too. I can't cheer for someone who treats others like that, title character or not. I can't see the relationship so easily as a balance of good and evil because Buffy displayed such heinous behaviour. Persoanlly, I think Season 7 was the season that was too dark. I understand they needed to play out the First storyline for a full season to finish things off nicely for the series, but they way the writers did it just made it drag on and on. So dull. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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sextonseven said: Oz looked and acted pretty human to me. Vampires don't. It's different because we are in control. If we were dogs and we saw vampires feasting on people who are responsible for our well-being, they would be just as evil. How is it different because we're in control? World domination or not, we're still the natural foodsource for the undead, and that's why I think we think vamps are evil. If we weren't their food we wouldn't give two shits. As for dogs, I don't think they'd be overly pissed about su being eaten. They may be our buddies and depend on us and even love us, but chances are even a house poddle understands the natural order of things. If you are something's natural food, don't be surprised when it takes a bite. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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meow85 said: But the show does state that they're not actually human anymore. So it doesn't matter how human Oz looked. He wasn't. And by your logic, that makes him punching bag material.
Werewolves aren't dead like vampires! How is it different because we're in control? World domination or not, we're still the natural foodsource for the undead, and that's why I think we think vamps are evil. If we weren't their food we wouldn't give two shits.
As for dogs, I don't think they'd be overly pissed about su being eaten. They may be our buddies and depend on us and even love us, but chances are even a house poddle understands the natural order of things. If you are something's natural food, don't be surprised when it takes a bite. It's different because people are the majority. Majority rules. I don't know how dogs think. I know how I would think if I was a dog and I'd be upset. | |
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meow85 said: Dayspring said: They're evil because the show has explicitly outlined them as *DEMONS* with an *EVIL* supernatural origin. It's as simple as that. There has to be good and there has to be evil for it to work. Pansy-ass politically correct rationalizing does no good in super-hero morality plays, which is what the show is. Again, there has to be good and there has to be evil for it to work, and for there to be a point. That's why I think the Buffy/Spike relationship didn't work (at least not until S7, when it was, for all intents and purposes over), no matter how much some people loved it, because there was no moral to it. With Angel, it was the bad boy who's tortured over his past (because he had a soul). With Spike, it was just a bad boy. She knew she shouldn't be with him, she didn't want to be with him, but she didn't do anything to change it, to better herself. I suppose you could say that there was a moral to it, in that he tried to rape her, but from a Buffy standpoint, the whole thing just didn't work and brought the character to a low. I think that's the problem with Season 6 in general. It's too dark. I know "Life was the Big Bad" but you know, who in the hell was watching this show to see something so miserable played out week after week with no end in sight? I think Joss & co. became enamoured of the idea that the show was "art" and "important" so they responded by making it as dark and arty and important as they could and pretty much sunk the whole thing. People are taking in entertainment like Buffy as an escape. They enjoy seeing real life metaphors played out in the context of the Buffy universe, not just watching miserable shit happen week in and week out. What happened to the metaphor? That's when the show really clicked. The first 3 seasons (and 4 or 5, to a bit lesser extent), they presented real life situations through the metaphor of demons and the Hellmouth. In S6, it was all just real life. And who the hell needs that from Buffy? Sorry, that went off into a bit of a rant. But the line between good and evil is nto always so clear. Rarely so in Buffy and even less often in real life. No, it's not, and that's something that should be (and was) addressed by the show. But at some point, good ought to triumph over evil, or there was no point in telling the story in a fantasy super-hero parable in the first place. Knew she shouldn't be with him, said she didn't want to eb with him, but constantly went to him for sex. Beat the shit out of him and verbally knocked him down more times than I could be bothered counting. But we're supposed to feel sorry for Buffy? The "Why do I let him do this to me" girl? Sorry, can't get with that. Season 6 made me hate Buffy. Don't get me wrong, I'm not some nutter Spike fangirl who's blinded by the glory of James Marsters cheekbones. Watching our hero repeatedly treat any of the other characters like shit for an entire season would've made me think of her as one evil fucking bitch too. I can't cheer for someone who treats others like that, title character or not. I can't see the relationship so easily as a balance of good and evil because Buffy displayed such heinous behaviour. that's exactly what I'm saying. the entire relationship with Spike (until toward the end of S7) brought Buffy's character EXTREMELY low. She was extremely unlikeable; abusive not only to Spike, but to her friends as well. you can't have your super hero acting like that and consider your show a success. Persoanlly, I think Season 7 was the season that was too dark. I understand they needed to play out the First storyline for a full season to finish things off nicely for the series, but they way the writers did it just made it drag on and on. So dull.
I think it's because of all the screen time devoted to the Potentials. They knew going into that season that it was going to be the last, so why did we spend it getting to know a bunch of canon-fodder that we had never seen before, didn't care about, and wouldn't be seeing again? And to make one of them Willow's girlfriend? I'm there to see Buffy, Giles, Xander, Willow, and the others. That entire aspect of the season really brought it down. Way too much focus on the extras instead of the core characters and the already fairly big supporting cast. | |
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sextonseven said: Werewolves aren't dead like vampires! That's true, but that's also not how you made the differentiation earlier. You said beating on Spike was okay because he's not human. So logically, beating on Oz should also be okay. You never brought up the line between living and dead. Besides, wouldn't beating up a corpse (albeit an animate one) constitute desecration of a dead body? That's illegal, ya know. Buffy, you lawless criminal, you.
It's different because people are the majority. Majority rules. I don't know how dogs think. I know how I would think if I was a dog and I'd be upset. I don't think it's different. Do you have any idea the ratio of chickens to humans? Why doesn't their majority rule? I'm sorry. I'm being facetious. Agree to not on this one, eh? "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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Dayspring said: that's exactly what I'm saying. the entire relationship with Spike (until toward the end of S7) brought Buffy's character EXTREMELY low. She was extremely unlikeable; abusive not only to Spike, but to her friends as well. you can't have your super hero acting like that and consider your show a success. I think it's because of all the screen time devoted to the Potentials. They knew going into that season that it was going to be the last, so why did we spend it getting to know a bunch of canon-fodder that we had never seen before, didn't care about, and wouldn't be seeing again? And to make one of them Willow's girlfriend? I'm there to see Buffy, Giles, Xander, Willow, and the others. That entire aspect of the season really brought it down. Way too much focus on the extras instead of the core characters and the already fairly big supporting cast. I didn't mind Willow getting a new girlfriend, even though I loved Tara and thought she was cheaply, lazily written out fo the show. But Kennedy pissed me off. It's one thing to introduce the Potentials -I thought it was a pretty cool idea, myself. But there was no reason to introduce the audience to what was essentially a crowd of fang-fodder and take time away from the Scoobies and friends. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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k im just going to do facts"
oz is a werewolf, hes not dead so he still has a soul, if you watch the series you see oz asking aunt something when uncle was bit and then passed it on. the family seems to be werewolf happy. Tara was always going to be killed. Josh has stated that from the get go. Taras death was meant to push Willow over the edge. The Most Important Thing In Life Is Sincerity....Once You Can Fake That, You Can Fake Anything. |
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lazycrockett said: k im just going to do facts"
It was actually his young cousin that had bitten him he was calling his aunt about.
oz is a werewolf, hes not dead so he still has a soul, if you watch the series you see oz asking aunt something when uncle was bit and then passed it on. the family seems to be werewolf happy. Tara was always going to be killed. Josh has stated that from the get go. Taras death was meant to push Willow over the edge. Oh I know that. I just didn't like that they fell so easily into the lesbian sex death cliche. With all the ways and times she could've been killed, that it was written the way it was, was lazy writing IMO. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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meow85 said: That's true, but that's also not how you made the differentiation earlier. You said beating on Spike was okay because he's not human. So logically, beating on Oz should also be okay. You never brought up the line between living and dead.
Living or dead to me is one of the distinctions of being human or not human. I don't think it's different. Do you have any idea the ratio of chickens to humans? Why doesn't their majority rule? I'm sorry. I'm being facetious. Agree to not on this one, eh? I agree that I think we have reached an impasse.  | |
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Dayspring said: Teacher said: This is not gonna be very popular then....but I don't care 
If you can't take the quantum-leap of faith/reasoning that's required to think about this episode and what it means to the entire series, I do know what it means for the seires: it means it was all a complete waste of time. That's what it makes you think for that episode anyway. And it's a nagging in the back of your head for the rest of the series as well. No entertainment should take you out of it (or its universe)... music, radio, tv, books, etc. It should be drawing you in. Not pulling the rug out from under itself. I don't mean to bring up a dead, old conversation, but "Normal Again" happened to come up in my nightly Buffy re-watching marathon last night, and I think beyond them pulling the rug out from under the entire premise of the series and completely ruining the suspension of disbelief required to enjoy a show like Buffy, the worst part was the revelation that Joyce and Buffy's dad had institutionalized her. Now, before Joyce knew she was the Slayer at the end of Season 2, Buffy and others regularly let things slip occasionally about vampires. Wouldn't Joyce have panicked when these things happened and had Buffy back in the looney bin? They completely wreck Joyce as a character in one of 2 ways with "Normal Again". Take your pick: 1) She had her daughter institutionalized in her mid-teens for talking about vampires. Now this is only a bad thing if it wasn't that much of a big deal at the time. However, considering the trouble Buffy had been in prior to moving to Sunnydale, it's understandable. 2) If it was understandable that she institutionalized Buffy prior to moving to Sunnydale, why on Earth did she not bat an eye on the occasions that vampires came up unintentionally in conversation after they had moved to Sunnydale? The nut-house ret-con or the "it's all (maybe) a dream" thing could possibly work by themselves. Both would still be completely stupid ideas for the integrity of the show, but having them both together completely undermines the entire series in every way. Yuck. Worst episode ever. | |
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