Dayspring said:

OK, I guess I can see that. But I still liked it. I didn't know it was so unpopular.

Dayspring said:

Nooooo! It just twists things one more notch and requires the viewers to re-evaluate their OWN beliefs, it's bloody brilliant

Teacher said:

Love you.

Teacher said:

it really doesn't. it only makes you re-evaluate your beliefs about the show. it makes you say to yourself "yeah, this is all pretty stupid." which is probably not what they were hoping for.

i think the writers/producers thought they were being very clever and artsy by puncturing the veil of reality about the show. instead, they merely de-railed the show by making you question if any of it was even worth watching for 6 years.

HORRIBLE mis-step, in my opinion.

Dayspring said:

This is not gonna be very popular then....but I don't care



If you can't take the quantum-leap of faith/reasoning that's required to think about this episode and what it means to the entire series, then farewell and good riddance! I can totally see an hours-long debate on this episode alone and what was intended, the effects on the Buffyverse as well as other episodes (kidelrich we need to have a sit-down about this some time!!!) and it gets me excited about the show all over again!

Teacher said:

I do know what it means for the seires: it means it was all a complete waste of time. That's what it makes you think for that episode anyway. And it's a nagging in the back of your head for the rest of the series as well. No entertainment should take you out of it (or its universe)... music, radio, tv, books, etc. It should be drawing you in. Not pulling the rug out from under itself.

sextonseven said:

You didn't make the distinction between living and not, you made the distinction between human and not. Werewolves in the Buffyverse are not human. So if we applied the same rules to wolves as we did to vamps it would be okay to haul off and beat Oz because he's not human.



Now that is an issue not brought up in the Buffyverse, as no one knows in real life, either. Are humans the only ones capable of making moral decisions? Personally I think not, but that's just my opinion.

As far as vamps equating us with animals, I think the shows made it quite clear that they do. They seem to prefer the taste of us to other animals, that's for sure. But the question still remains -is a vamp eating something as advanced as a human really that different than a human eating something as relatively advanced as a pig or even monkey meat? Where's the line, and what makes us humans so much superior to other species that vampires -though we're they're preferred flavour and they thrive rather than simply survive on our blood -shouldn't be allowed to eat people?

Personally, I won't eat pork products. If an animal is genetically close enough for us to take organ transplants from, that's too close to family for me to consider food.

sextonseven said:

I'm glad they didn't cop out like Roseanne and make that the end of the series, to say it all didn't happen. I think what would've been interesting though had they left that particular episode open-ended, to leave it up to the viewer whether or not it had been real.

On the other hand, the fangirls and boys never would've quit arguing, so maybe it's a good thing they didn't.
[Edited 7/31/06 0:08am]

Teacher said:

The canines elongating is a pretty standard visual. I never quite understood why Joss decided to go with the Vamp Face idea. No doubt to highlight the "demon" or the "evil" in the character, so you don't forget you're dealing with a non-human.

That was, I found, a huge flaw in the later AtS episodes: it was too easy to forget that the title character wasn't a person.

kidelrich said:

Spike for sure.

Angel had it forced on him as punishment and then moped and lurked for 100 years, then turned into a chronic bitcher and brooder.

Spike busted his ass and nearly died to get his. He wanted the "curse" Angel'd been moaning about all those years, even if it did send him into the nuthouse for a few months.

Teacher said:

I liked the Musical Episode.

kidelrich said:

Hey sextonseven -did the chip make him cry?

j/k

meow85 said:

Spike Didnt want his soul back, he wanted to get the power to kill Buffy. I like the Spike Character but he was seriously declawed in the later seasons.

lazycrockett said:

That's never established, is it? The viewers are made to believe right up until the point that he was re-souled that he meant to get back the power to kill. I don't think the demon tricked him though -Spike went to look for something to make him "what Buffy deserves". That statement goes either way. I think the scenario was designed on purpose to make the viewer attach whichever meaning they preferred to Spike's quest.

But on the other hand, during Season 7 and several times in AtS season 5 it's stated by Spike and others that he fought for his soul; that he wanted it. No mention is made of being tricked into a soul or having originally wanted something more sinister. I still can't figure out if that's another case of shaky writing continuity or if Spike really had been trying for a soul all along. Either way, it pisses off Angel, so it's gotta be a good thing.
[Edited 7/31/06 1:19am]

meow85 said:

The Bloody may have said that He wanted it back, during the Angel series but at the moment he got "what Buffy deserves" the scream wasn't a harmonious cry of joy. He DIDNT want his soul back.

lazycrockett said:

I got the impression he screamed because it was physically painful.
[Edited 7/31/06 1:41am]

meow85 said:

Well you could say that but at the same time, Spikey had been through numerous test and didnt shriek in pain. He tried to keep a calm "i can take it" demuear (sp?) Only when hes told he's going to get his soul back does he freak out.

lazycrockett said:

Er, he's told he's getting his soul back at the exact moment the demon shoves his fist in his chest and makes him all spooky-glowy. How do you figure it was the words that made him scream and not the pain?

Besides, that still doesn't address the fact that from that point on in the storyline it's always referred to as Spike fighting for his soul; wanting it, with not even a hint that he was tricked into it.

sextonseven said:

That was cool!

cborgman said:

Totally agree! I was so sad when both of these characters died.

JediMaster said:

especially the way both went down with no warning, no goodbye

Dayspring said:

Totally agree. To make it even worse, Star Trek: Deep Space 9 had done the EXACT SAME THING in the last few seasons of that show with Captain Sisko. It seemed clever then, because the audience is never sure if Sisko is nuts, if he exists in more than one reality at once, or if "the Prophets" are just jacking with him. With Buffy, it made you think the whole show might be a delusion of hers, and even when she makes a choice, you're never sure if she didn't just retreat into her psychosis full-time, thus making the entire Buffyverse the fantasy of a deranged girl.

cborgman said:

Yes, it was heartbreaking!

The good thing about this was that it added a true feeling of suspense to the show. If two beloved characters as these could be killed, then anyone was fair game. Most shows you don't have to ever worry about popular characters. If on a show like Star Trek, you have Kirk, Spock, Scotty and dude-in-a-red-shirt-that-we've-never-seen-before, who do you think will bite it? On Buffy, it could very well have been Xander, Willow or Giles that met an untimely end. It kept you on the edge of your seat when one of your faves was put in harm's way.

meow85 said:

I always interpreted it this way too. I've always assumed Spike's cry was one of absolute pain (much more agonizing than anything he'd faced in his trials). There really isn't any indication throughout the rest of the series (or Angel either), that Spike was "tricked" into being re-ensouled. If that were the case, why did he never take any action to have it removed?

JediMaster said:

He wanted it. The writers have said as much.

kidelrich said:

My niece has ALL of them, decorating her apartment (and there are waaaaay more than I ever realized)! She just recently got the Sunnydale High library diorama! It's sooooo cool!

meow85 said:

I'd cry if someone took away the first meal I was about to have in several months.

meow85 said:

I still think werewolves retain their humanity unlike vampires.


That answer is easy. People run the planet, therefore what we say goes. If pigs were clearly in control of the world, then I would stop eating them.

sextonseven said:

I agree, it's plainly stated that in Buffyverse a demon inhabits a dead body to constitute a vampire but werewolves aren't possessed in any way, they're humans who just happen to turn furry on the full moon.

JediMaster said:

Exactly. Spike of all people would've been pissed about being tricked into doubling his handicap like that. Instead, after crawling out of the basement and finding a shirt that fits (apparently when you gain a soul, your laundry shrinks ) despite being the same snarky bitch he'd always been, really tries to live up to his new shiny soul. And never wastes an opportunity to point out to Angel how much better he handled the experience, either.
[Edited 7/31/06 22:19pm]