Imago said:

Thank you sir. I'll check it out.

notoriousj said:

yeah you did infact state that without said diploma you would basically get nowhere - well minimum wage in the states

forget your example of doctors or lawyers.. there are many that can overtake your american "applicants" for said job, without requested diploma etc etc

RebornVirgin said:

With my current company I went through a 3 hour interview where they tore appart my resume going line for line and asking technical questions about my knowlege.

There were 3 people in the room and it was a bloodfest.

I walked out certain I didn't land the job.


American companies are starting to really tighten up, especially the bigger companies becuase they could always just offshore the labor to cheaper Indian sites.

RebornVirgin said:

I joke you alot and people probably think we hate each other, but I love you man!

REDBABY said:

PPS And that rather strange little man Shahbaz got told of by the others then went into diary room and asked 2 leave they said they couldnt do it then he went 2 bed.
Oh and that blond bird has got on my nerves now and I want her out so best u vote 2 get her out

REDBABY said:

Its funny I am arguing about working in the states with someone who does not live or work in the states...you have no basis for what you are saying.

Imago said:

nevermind edit...forgot what I was going to say.
[Edited 5/20/06 17:18pm]

Imago said:

I love you too, in a non sexual manner.

RebornVirgin said:

whatever

Imago said:

In my line of work, artists don't care about diplomas. They care how their work sounds after I dealt with it. But to get to a position when I can work in the states, I have to show some credentials. The US will not let me in if I can't prove that I can do the job better than the Americans' or if the company who wants me can't find someone qualified in the US.

notoriousj said:

Cos I dont work in the states? Isnt that a bit presumptious and predjudice?

Your last statement clearly didnt give a good argument, and seems now you wanna get personal..

all I am saying is that if you are CLEARLY up in your knowledge in PROFESSIONAL careers, then you will understand that any american employer can let said professional through the back door or through the FRONT DOOR without DIPLOMAS, and allow them a fucking great job, well fucking paid, with great benefits and holidays, that do NOT sit in your average joe american normal day to day job..


[Edited 5/20/06 17:22pm]

RebornVirgin said:

I see what you mean.

It's important here to have degrees, certifications, and references.
Of course in my line of work, talent is much less important than credentials

In an artistic field I could only imagine.

RebornVirgin said:

exactly.. and they dont give jack shit about diplomas, is what I am saying

REDBABY said:

The problem is that American companies are a bit different.
The atmosphere here is more tense, especially at larger companies.
Job stress levels in the U.S. are much higher than those in Europe, and even in Japan.
I have a masters degree and I"m actually thinking about pursuing additional certifications to stay competative.

Interior designers, sound engineers--the creative folk, are now starting to see the same pressures, though to a lesser extent.

Imago said:

If hat continues, they'll start asking diplomas from hookers. proof that they went to sex classes.

RebornVirgin said:

You're implying that Americans will progress to the point were we'll reach some kind of non-puritan, socially liberal status.

I think we'll continue to be a developed, modernized country with that behaves more like a theocratic dictatorship for a few years to come yet.
[Edited 5/20/06 17:31pm]

Imago said:

I think in my profession I have sometyhing wanted by american employers, and thats knowledge of the european market, old skool designing and make up skills
and a more polished knowledge of the shoe industry.

Granted there are many talented american designers, but where do they go to develop their skills? Europe

Where are most shoes made? Europe or the far east

Where are the Footwear Design SPECIALISED Courses ? UK and Europe

thats what I am saying..

maybe I was biased in my argument, but I do know for a fact that it accounts for others.. more said than just shoe designers


Nuff said
[Edited 5/20/06 17:33pm]

I think I should turn into a Rabbi and teach Kabalah. There's always need for that in LA.

REDBABY said:

I don't think we're dissagreeing here though.
American companies are not worried about innovation so much as the stock market.
More and more, workers are being asked to take on additional skillsets or to do more work than a single person is normally expected to do.

There are a few exceptions---We obviously dominate the Entertainment Industry, have a large footprint in Software and things of that nature---but this is not becuase American's are more creative--it's becuase we've got more money, and other coultures tend to get a hard on for our stuff.

But I'm not going to dissagree with your point at all--there is something fundementally lacking in the U.S. when a worker is expected to be technically trained, but no thought is given to their "natural abilities".

We develope processes and quality initiatives in every major large sized company to figure out ways to have workers (regardless of their skill and ability) produce the same output as any other worker in that position within the lowest possible standard deviation. For some industries that works, but American companies go overboard in trying to apply those quality initatives across the board.

RebornVirgin said:

Shalom..

Imago said:

This is true...this is why I am starting in the fall to finish my second BA degree and then pursue my Masters in fine arts to complement my first BA degree in Art.

REDBABY said:

You need to check your definition of prejudice because it does not fit what I said...and no I was not being presumptious...I was stating the plain truth.

RebornVirgin said:

Funny I am an artist and there a whole bunch of other artists that go to school as well as I did to have a degree and get a good paying job. Its just a difference between countries where more emphasis is put on something such as degrees, certificates and etc.

Imago said:

Non-Americans or people who aren't overly familiar with the American system often don't realise just how fucked up the arse it all is.

I have been trying to enter the States to live for years, with my girlfriend.

The only way is to have a SPECIAL SKILL which they cannot find in an American citizen, or GET MARRIED to an American.... and even then, you're going to be probably be waiting up to 2 years for the paper work to go through.

The States is truly unlike other Western nations... it's bureaucratic up the arse, from top to bottom.

You better make sure you have every reason and are QUALIFIED (in whatever faction) to be there, moreso than Joe Schmo down at Burger King who has no skills whatsoever... or you're wasting time and money.

You guys are really hitting the tip of the iceberg. In my experience most Americans don't even realise how difficult it is to enter and stay in their country as a non-US citizen.

It's almost not worth it.



Best of luck to you.

If you want all the info on visas, btw, here is one of the best sites. But get ready for a headache!

http://www.visajourney.com


.
[Edited 5/20/06 18:00pm]

notoriousj said:

I think diplomas only show what you've learned. Not what you know, or what your true skills are. That is why I dislike diplomas. I went to school to get education, not a certificate. And with my skills, I was able to prove myself with every job I've done. None of my employers ever regretted hiring me. even the ones who paid me more than the market's price for my job.
This what would've happened if people like Prince had to go through schools to get signed by recod companies.

Most Israelis I know who went to the states, made it very well. Because of their skills and competitiveness. I'd rather have someone like that working for me, than someone who has a paper that says he knows this and that. That's why I do very well in interviews. Because they can see for themselves who they're dealing with. That I'm willing to learn, and willing to work hard.

RebornVirgin said:

I do understand what you are saying and I am not saying you are wrong...but I even hate to say this its so clique (sp?) but things are different here post 911 and its harder now and more competative then it was pre 911.