Do nice guys really finish last?
By Matt Schneiderman

It’s every single guy’s nightmare: He’s on a date with a woman he digs and he’s doing everything right, from asking “all about her” to paying the check before she’s even returned from the restroom. He calls her promptly the next day for date number two... only to hear her confess that she’s obsessed with some guy, despite his flaws—like never paying for dinner or returning her calls. Indeed, it’s enough to convince any sincere, sweet guy that he can’t win at love... and wonder why, in this day and age, women still fall for that bad-boy shtick? What is it about them that turns women on—and how can a decent guy gain an edge? We asked a couple of experts and three women with bad boys in their past to unravel the mystery.



The panelists:

* Sherry Argov, author of the upcoming Why Men Marry Bitches: A Woman's Guide to Winning Her Man's Heart
* Dan Indante, co-author of The Complete A**hole's Guide to Handling Chicks
* Lisa Freedman, 22
* Judy Coleman, 24
* Marcelle Karp, 41

Q: Bad boys. What’s the allure?
Dan Indante: Women are lying when they say they want a nice guy. Their mothers might want them to meet Mr. Right, but they all want the bad boys. The nice guys are too accessible, and women really want what they can't have. When a guy treats a woman poorly, it makes her think she can’t have him. It’s the thrill of the hunt, the forbidden fruit.

Sherry Argov: I pin it on low self-worth. The allure is that she believes she deserves a guy who treats her poorly. Two-thirds of women are insecure and will gravitate towards bad boys. Women with high self-worth wouldn't put up with bad behavior for 30 seconds.

Marcelle: A bad boy has a bit of danger about him—and if you fall for him, you'll have a long drop. My first bad boy, Erik, had a quick sense of humor, a tragic family history, and gorgeous green eyes. His best friend Steven had the hugest crush on me and was such a good guy. I went for Erik.

Lisa: As a high-strung type, I was always attracted to bad boys because they were relaxed and didn’t care about anything. I thought maybe it would rub off on me. I dated a guy who dabbled in illicit behavior, and I became mysterious and bad by association.

Q: Are there certain times women are more drawn to bad boys—say, when they’re young and not interested in a serious relationship?
Sherry Argov: Women are more attracted to bad boys when they're in their twenties. Bad boys put women they're seeing into a holding pattern where they keep the relationship from progressing. For younger women, this is a way to avoid ever having to get that close.

Marcelle: My tastes definitely changed over time. Bad boys slept on futons, good guys slept in real beds. After a while, I started wanting to sleep in a real bed.

Q: How does a guy give himself away as good or bad on a first date?
Lisa: I can tell if he’ll be a good guy or a bad boy before we even go out. If he’s too shy when we make plans, he’s going to be a lame good-guy date. But if he takes charge and tells me what we'll be doing, I know I may have found a bad boy.

Judy: The number one sign of a bad boy is someone who says, "We're just having fun" or "I like hanging out with you"—the same way you'd talk about a friend.

Sherry Argov: The bad boy is smooth, slick—rehearsed. Chances are, he has his con down pat. He's also impatient with regards to sex. At the end of the night, a bad boy will come on too strong and say things like, "You're a prude," "You're too uptight," "You're not trusting me."

Q: Can a bad boy turn good? Or a good guy turn bad?
Lisa: I could never turn a bad boy good, even though I tried (and had fun trying). I didn't want to make him all good—just a little bit so I could have the best of both worlds. But I have definitely turned good guys bad. They're so eager to please; they'll do anything you want. Good guys are normally afraid to try fun stuff in the bedroom, but that's usually the first place I could get them to change.

Marcelle: Once you tame a bad boy, there's nothing bad about him—he becomes human. The really, really bad boys could never be scared straight, though.

Judy: I succeeded in turning a bad boy good once. We dated for six weeks, during which time he was flaky and treated me badly, until he ultimately broke up with me. But we never fell completely out of touch. He says he wants to get back together, calls regularly and checks in, and his tone is completely different. But he had his chance, and he blew it.

Q: Can a good guy get a little bit of the bad-boy mystique? Should he?
Sherry Argov: A little bit of bad boy is OK—like salt in your diet. Don't be too obvious about how much you like a woman; leave her wondering a little bit. Do most of the pursuing, but not all. Keep her guessing about your whereabouts to a certain degree. Be a little bit mysterious.

Dan Indante: He should save the chivalry for his mom or sister. When he's out on a date, the woman should wonder a bit about how he feels about her—like, if she weren't there, someone else would be.

Q: In the end, who really wins: The nice guy or the bad boy?
Sherry Argov: The good guy—who is also smart enough to sustain intrigue by keeping the woman guessing a little bit.

Lisa: I'm with someone now who's a good guy with a hint of bad boy. He's not afraid to challenge me, but he’s totally trustworthy, supportive, and treats me right—none of which I'd get with a bad boy.

Judy: The guy I'm dating right now is a 100-percent good guy—and I could not be happier. I don't have to ever think about nice things he could be doing for me, because he's already done them.

Freelance writer Matt Schneiderman has written for Stuff and Sync magazines. He is a pretty good guy.

considerate guys finish last

I usually try to finish first.

The key for a "Nice Guy" to succeed is to work a little bit of "The Bad-Boy" into their routine, like, for example, lighting off some Black Cat firecrackers in her presence, or vomiting a little bit in her diet soda when she's not looking. Maybe evade some taxes on top of this and you'll get by just fine.

Does this make any freakin' sense whatsoever??...lol...She says she "succeeded" in turning a bad boy into a good boy once...then goes on to describe her time with him as six weeks of him being flaky and treating her badly, until he finally broke up with her. How the HELL is that considered "success" in her eyes??...lol...Oh, but now that he wants to get back together, his "tone is different". Maybe she's actually fooling herself into believing he's sincere this time and, thus, she turned him "good"...

This woman's an idiot...lol

Nice guys do finish last. Women have been going for bad boys for years and years and years and years and years and Years. Mothers pass it down to daughters and then they pass it down to their daughters. Then they have a kid with the bad boy and any son they may have becomes a bad boy. The mothers don't even try to teach their sons not to be bad boys. Women are addicted to them. It's a combination of stupidity and low self esteem. It's too bad because a lot of good guys get passed over in the process and consider becoming bad boys.

women go for confident guys who seem like they would be good in bed and bring excitment to their lives... not neccessarily bad boys.... but then again you do have girls that fall for known serial killers...

Nice guys who want to see their partners reach climax before them do.

No.

Spats said:

This is often the case.

SammiJ said:

Well, more "nice guys" finish last in the immediate than "bad boys" do...but in the long run, you're right, nice guys finish way ahead of the pack.

No they don't. You rarely see nice guys with hot babes. They usually end up with the ugos because the babes are with the bad boys. The nice guys have to settle for the ugos.

Spats said:

I don't see what the problem is. I drove a Yugo for years and it was a reliable automobile.

where's my ride already?

I'm the hidden multi-tasking serial dater
[Edited 4/14/06 20:56pm]

Well according to Green Day.....

"Nice Guys Finish Last"

Nice guys finish last.
You're running out of gas.
Your sympathy will get you left behind.
Sometimes you're at your best, when you feel the worst.
Do you feel washed up, like piss going down the drain

Pressure cooker pick my brain and tell me I'm insane.
I'm so fucking happy I could cry.
Every joke can have its truth and now the joke's on you.
I never knew you were such a funny guy.

Oh nice guys finish last, when you are the outcast.
Don't pat yourself on the back you might break your spine.

Living on command.
You're shaking lots of hands.
Kissing up and bleeding all your trust, taking what you need.
Bite the hand that feeds.
You lose your memory and you got no shame.

i've come to notice that it has a lot to do with age. when a woman is a girl and inmature she wants a boy-a bad boy. when she is a woman she gets a good guy or someone who treats her right-a man. sorry to say but a lot of times it takes a woman a lot of trial and error (and being foolish) sometimes to get it right.

brownsugar said:

Yup, that's it exactly.

HobbesLeCute said:

JustErin said:

Yeah, but by the time she finally matures and has no interest in bad boys anymore, she isn't hot anymore. When they are in their prime years they are kicking the nice guys to the curb.

Spats said:

if you're as bad as this in reality, you must be pulling chicks left right and centre

I am telling you it's true. I have seen it enough times to know.

Spats said:

are you very nice in real life? or do you try to be bad?

It depends on what you mean by very nice.

Spats said:

I would define nice as someone who is happy, not moody and sarcastic in demeanor, someone who is enthusiastic about things, likes to participate - you know, a count me in kind of person, who people like to include in their plans because they are great to be with. Who sounds really happy when you call them, who is genuinely grateful when you give them something or take them somewhere. Someone who has a terrific relationship with their family. That to me would be a nice guy.
Nice to me does not = door mat "walk all over me" types. I like strength of character and drive.

Going by what you consider nice, I am not nice.

I can be pretty damn moody.
I can be pretty damn sarcastic.
Certain family members are pissed at me because i will not be going to the 3 weddings in the family this year.

I don't think to many guys are getting laid with beautiful women if they fall under your description of a nice guy. I am out on the dating scene. I see what's going on. It's brutal.
[Edited 4/14/06 22:13pm]

I'm a nice guy.
But whenever I finish first,
my girlfriend gets mad.

I am a nice guy.

If you asked me if "nice guys finish first?", I would have to say it depends upon the depth of the "race" you are viewing.

Yes we get walked upon, shoved out of the way, and trampled by people, but in the end, the very end, I think, I hope, I believe we will finish first.

Spats said:

so you should be pulling chicks from all directions then, like I said before.

I guess it depends on the real question. Do assholes get laid more often and have an easier time attracting women? Yes. Do they also become more pathetic as the years go by? Yes.