alwayslate said:

So sorry to hear that your child's father died right before he was born. How awful! No wonder you're having such a tough time. How did he die, if you don't mind me asking?

shanti0608 said:

What other reasons are there for having kids other than selfish reasons?

purpledisc said:

What was your reason for having children?

coolcat said:

because we did. No other reason needed.

Y'all do realize that if people hadn't been 'selfish' y'all wouldn't be here, right?

I don't get the whole judging thing folx on the Org do when none of us are perfect.

People who have kids are no more selfish than anyone else.

purpledisc said:

That's cool.

coolcat said:

Thanks

I just want to say - There is no selfishness in giving your love to a Man or Woman is there ??

So why should it be different to a child ?

We all want to love and be loved and if a Couple feel the need to have children in thier lives, so be it.

Also I personally believe that a woman who can endure many hours of painful labour is not being selfish.....Damn thats an act of selflessnes !!!!!

I certainly would not want to endure that myself

purpledisc said:

Loving someone is selfish because you are fulfilling a desire to love and be loved. You're thinking about yourself. Animals and humans are not the same because humans have the ability to control their actions. Parents are selfish for having childre, period. They're just too caught up in their facade of "selflessness" to see that their child didn't ask to be born. My original comment was to address someone who made a statement that childless people are naturally more selfish which is not true

purpledisc said:

Which, is selfish

Romera said:

...and people who don't have children are not any more selfish. That's my point


I don't understand the notion that we should all be grateful for being born. If I had my choice, I wouldn't have been born at all. Life can be harder for some than others. People try to justify life because they know nothing else and say it's supposed to be hard or use religion to justify the atrocities that happen to some of us. Give me a break. Don't think because you have a child and raise it they in turn should be a happy adult about it

purpledisc said:

Yes, it is. Most people desire companionship. When they seek out that companionship they are thinking about that desire. They are thinking about themselves. The desire to love is just as selfish as the desire to be loved



It's not, it's the same thing



Ok, but it doesn't make them less selfish



A woman fully understands what labor is when she decides early on to have a child. She doesn't deserve a medal for it. Women in 2006 are scheduling deliveries now and opting for c-sections when they don't need them

BlackBuddy said:

just because a woman fully understand what she's going through (unless its her first) it doesn't make it any less painful. and i think mothers do deserve some type of reward for it. i don't expect it and i don't need it but there is a lot that goes into it. a lot of responsibility regardless of whether it was asked of us or not. women who get c-sections still endure pain from contractions. its the contractions of opening up that hurts.

BlackBuddy said:

So you live your life without Love ??? or the 'need' / 'desire' to have children and basically you hate your parents for bringing into this world??

Are you like 15 years old or something, cuz that sounds like a Puberty driven complaint to me??

BlackBuddy said:

I guess we are on opposite ends on this one. I really don't get what you are trying to say.

purpledisc said:

Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said I lived my life without love and I never said I didn't have the desire to have children. If and when I choose to fulfull those desires, I am committing a selfish act. I recognize this, most people don't. You're not reading what I am saying. No, I don't hate my parents, but I shouldn't be expected to be happy that I am here and neither should your children. They didn't ask for it, you did
[Edited 4/22/06 13:28pm]

purpledisc said:

I'm in my late 20s, and I see where she's coming from. Not everyone thinks that life "in itself" is a great thing...

I'd be offended if my mother told me that she expected a reward for giving birth to me.

Romera said:

I didn't try to say it. I said it. Sorry you don't get what I am saying. I get the feeling most people on the this thread aren't opening their minds up to even try to understand a different point of view. They're too busy putting themsleves on pedestals and disrespecting those who choose to not do what they do. Having a child doesn't make you (not saying you directly) a better person

coolcat said:

Thank you

First off - I am not putting words in your mouth, I am reacting to how I understood your post.

Second - I am pretty sure no one expects their kids to be thankful for being born - I know parents say it to their kids ( I can recall at least once mine saying it!!) but I am sure it is not always meant in the context it is given.

Third - Your comment "If I had my choice, I wouldn't have been born at all" gives the impression that you are somewhat unhappy with your life and hence my comments - That is a very heavy comment to make. I am happy I was born as I have led a life that I would not change - I am not well off , I have the same struggles as most other people do but that is just the way it turned out for me. Life is what you make it - I don't agree with the "Supposed to be hard or you wont go to haven" mumbo jumbo either. You want a good life you have to work for it.

Fourth - The only expectation I would have off my child is that they live a good, long and safe life. How they turn out as an adult mostly depends on how we bring them up. Then it is upto them.

purpledisc said:

Isn't that an overly idealistic way of seeings things? People have to deal with things that are out of their control... they genetic makeup, environment, etc... There are people that will be miserable no matter how hard they work.

coolcat said:

well there you have it-what can you do. its always gonna be that way for somebody. you cant heal the world. sometimes things happen we can't control and sometimes life really is what you make it for those who have the opportunity but do not go for it. bottom line parenting is hard work but a parent isn't any better than someone who isn't a parent. but to present birthing and raising a family as if its like going to the cleaners or paying your bills is not right either. it is so much more and it something that wont be understood until or if it does happen to you.
[Edited 4/22/06 14:05pm]

brownsugar said:

coolcat said:

Not only is it idealistic, but it is also very cold. I had one of my parents say that to me. In a nutshell they were saying "I may have done some bad things and not been a good enough parent, but it's not my problem anymore, it's yours"

brownsugar said:

True, but some of those people who have children tend to forget they're not better

BlackBuddy said:

That is cold. Just an overly simplified way of seeing things...

BlackBuddy said:

i'm sorry your parents said that. that is wrong and its fucked up. it sounds as if they were pushing the blame for their faults onto you which i feel in itself is a form of abuse. saying that life is what you make of it is not idealistic-it is just something that doesn't apply to everyone. i have a homeless uncle right now who chose to party and do drugs as opposed to taking advantage of the full scholarship he recieved to Dartmouth college when he was younger. He chose to mess it up. his life was what he made it. now someone who doesn't have that opportunity then thats a difference thing.

Spats said:

Let's not get into the selfish debate- I find you rather selfish but that's Ok- just my opinion...

I just think it's a very serious commitment to have children that people don't think about. Sometimes, I think people are caught up in the romantic notion of having kids, but definitely raising them is hard work. I don't think that there is anything wrong with feeling overwhelmed from time to time because it seems to be an overwhelming job and responsibility to raise kids, particularly in this day and age.

As far as being selfish, well is it selfish to fulfill your desires? If so, then we all are selfish in certain respects, aren't we? However, I do think that some people shouldn't have children or have them for the wrong reasons. I've seen some situations where I have thought why on Earth did these people have kids in the first place if they don't want to raise them? But amazingly, some great kids have come out of some very bad situations, so go figure. I just think a person has do the best he/she can in any situation... whatever deliberate choices or chance might bring.

By the way, I don't have children, but I taught high school for a number of years, so I have some experience dealing with all types of kids and parents. I have some issues to where having children might not be possible, and I used to be depressed about that. Now though, I have a pretty full, busy life. I'm happy, so if I don't have kids, well it won't be the end of the world. Am I selfish? Well, yeah I guess so. But I think ultimately people have to follow their own paths. If a couple chooses not to have children, maybe that choice is the best for them, but obviously it's unthinkable for others who have wanted to be parents. It's always amazing to me how life unfolds, and things appear to happen for a reason.

I dunno. I think that we are all in this life together, so we need to support each other rather than criticize. Consequently, I really appreciate the honesty of the initial post. I know how tough raising kids can be. But then again, having children --or just helping kids reach their goals--is very rewarding. Helping people in general is the most important thing that we can do--knowing that you somehow made a difference in someone's life. Well, that's pretty fulfilling in itself.

Isel said: