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Reply #30 posted 02/01/06 12:31am

Heiress

LleeLlee said:

Posthumous said:



when i usually think of dandyism, i usually think of quentin crisp, morrissey, and some little purple dude whose name i can't remember right now. wink



me too, also Oscar Wilde in his hey day.


He was definitely a son of Byron.

Speaking of Wilde, for some odd reason, in my head, Dorian Grey looks like Nick Rhodes. lol That evil, beautiful smile...
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Reply #31 posted 02/01/06 12:32am

Heiress

LleeLlee said:

Here's a short article about Dandyism and New Romantics.

http://www.wikiservice.at...wRomantics


Great, thanks! I have to dig around and see what all has already been written...
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Reply #32 posted 02/01/06 4:49am

CynthiasSocks

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Heiress said:

CynthiasSocks said:

I'd take a dandy daddy any ol'damned day! batting eyes


I thought I might find you here at some point... wave


wave Check out my avie! giggle
Socks still got butt like a leather seat...
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Reply #33 posted 02/01/06 4:56am

LleeLlee

Heiress said:

LleeLlee said:




me too, also Oscar Wilde in his hey day.


He was definitely a son of Byron.

Speaking of Wilde, for some odd reason, in my head, Dorian Grey looks like Nick Rhodes. lol That evil, beautiful smile...



true lol
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Reply #34 posted 02/01/06 5:12am

Heiress

CynthiasSocks said:

Heiress said:



I thought I might find you here at some point... wave


wave Check out my avie! giggle


I've been admiring it. batting eyes
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Reply #35 posted 02/01/06 7:30am

Lammastide

avatar

Heiress said:

Lammastide said:

Heiress, if you don't mind, I'd LOVE to read your work when you're finished. The masculine aesthetic through history and cultures is one of my fascinations.

I'm neither a huge fan of nor expert on Tom of Finland, but Posthumous is correct in that the military boots, the leather, chaps, caps, muscle and body hair, etc. are all a sort of homage via caricature to masculinity, which, in turn, is sort of the totem of the homosexual. (And please don't take that in an idolotrous sense.) Even beyond the Leather Community, you'll find a similar reverence for the hypermasculine look throughout the gay world: cowbows, the "straight" or "daddy" look, the bear, bikers, construction workers, military men, men in formal wear, the "Abercrombie & Fitch" look, the thug, etc. Conversely, there is a certain sector of the gay community that actively reveres a masculine aesthetic exactly opposite of the hypermasculine: the transexual, the transvestite, the twink, the fem, etc. It's all very fascinating!

My guess is that if you dig deep enough, you'll find some of the earliest influences on this dichotomy in classical Western arts, literature and thought. Consider the juxtaposition of Apollo and Dionysus, for example...

Apollo, the Greco-Roman ideal of masculine beauty, was the all-time goldenboy. While classical retellings mention him as a god much younger than the titans, some among his cult passed on that he was THE model after which titan Prometheus patterned the human male: Tall, muscular, chisled, simultaneously a poet, musician and athlete, and the most widely celebrated lover (of both men and women) of all the Olympians. Yet, interestingly, he was the only male Olympian who wasn't a lover of Aphrodite, the goddess of female beauty. Also, while he is rarely depicted angrily or as a warrior or craftsman type, there was scarcely anything "feminine" about him. And visually, he's always on display -- either completely nude or scantily clad in most art and sculpture; his body beautifully muscled and his hair either handsomely coiffed or consciously untamed... and adorned with laurel leaves, the symbol of heroism, dominance and authority. You might say he was THE superlative archetype of the male completely detached from femaleness. Liken this to a Tom of Finland image (albeit sacred, rather than profane).

On the other hand, you have Dionysus, the father of wine, revelry and ecstacy. By some accounts he, too, was bisexual, and the male archetype in opposition to Apollo. He, like Apollo, was supposed to be eternally young and beautiful, but Dionysus was soft, slight, boyish or downright feminine, dressed decidedly in spectacular crowns, purples, reds and wildcat skins... sometimes, it is said, even in women's wigs and clothing! As we discussed briefly once before, his male cult revelers often followed suit. In fact, some are said to have religiously castrated themselves, as did the male followers of the goddess Rhea, Dionysus' mentor. I think he was a personification of the female-in-the-male aesthetic!

I think Dandyism, at least in the West, may have its roots among the ancients who imagined their beloved male dieties like these.

...And by all means, don't forget Oscar Wilde or Plato on male beauty.
twocents
[Edited 1/31/06 20:57pm]


Shoot, Lammas, I'm writing this thing in French... do you read French? I wouldn't doubt it.

So from a mythical standpoint, was Hephaestus/Vulcan a bear? wink

Dandyism DEFINITELY has its roots in ancient Greece. It was the first true aesthetic cult of masculinity.

Some of the New Romantics like Boy George, Marilyn, etc are just a bit Dionysian, aren't they? Paglia says that male-to-female transvestites are mother - therefore goddess - worshiping.

Yes, this is fascinating, isn't it? I love deciphering these sexual personae.

First, yeah, I can navigate a little French. wink ...All the more with the help of my wife and Babblefish! smile

As for Hephaestus, I don't know that he'd be a bear. Ares or maybe some of the Norse gods, perhaps -- but not Hephaestus. Bears, though they are niche, still subscribe to a certain paradigm of very presentational beauty. Hephaestus was a pretty reclusive dude: crippled, hidden away and uncelebrated for his ugliness. But he knew his way around some impressive metal and jewelry work, and tried to woo others with his wares!

...That just sounds like a tragic sugar daddy to me. lol

Interesting, though, that these displays are a bit inverted in the case of Romantics and the New Romantics as well... Don't ya think?

Even Prince, I mean... what has he managed to reproduce, really? This is about attention-getting as a way to immortality.

hmmm But consider the usually disproportionate homosexual representation in Dandyism. Could it be, at least on some psychosocial level, that this mode of pursuing immortality is in some way a proxy for the ability to establish genetic immortality... under conventional social arrangements, anyway?*

...I dunno. Just having fun reaching here. biggrin



* Please don't kill me, Org Gay Mafia shoot3
[Edited 2/1/06 9:42am]
Ὅσον ζῇς φαίνου
μηδὲν ὅλως σὺ λυποῦ
πρὸς ὀλίγον ἐστὶ τὸ ζῆν
τὸ τέλος ὁ χρόνος ἀπαιτεῖ.”
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Reply #36 posted 02/01/06 8:29am

Heiress

Lammastide said:[quote]

Heiress said:


First, yeah, I can navigate a little French. wink ...All the more with the help of my wife and Babblefish! smile

As for Hephaestus, I don't know that he'd be a bear. Ares or maybe some of the Norse gods, perhaps -- but not Hephaestus. Bears, though they are niche, still subscribe to a certain paradigm of very presentational beauty. Hephaestus was a pretty reclusive dude: crippled, hidden away and uncelebrated for his ugliness. But he knew his way around some impressive metal and jewelry work, and tried to woo others with his wares!

...That just sounds like a tragic sugar daddy to me. lol

Interesting, though, that these displays are a bit inverted in the case of Romantics and the New Romantics as well... Don't ya think?

Even Prince, I mean... what has he managed to reproduce, really? This is about attention-getting as a way to immortality.

hmmm But consider the usually disproportionate homosexual representation in Dandyism. Could it be, at least on some psychosocial level, that this mode of pursuing immortality is in some way a proxy for the inability to establish genetic immortality... under conventional social arrangements, anyway?*

...I dunno. Just having fun reaching here. biggrin



* Please don't kill me, Org Gay Mafia shoot3
[Edited 2/1/06 8:21am]


I'm going to mull that last question over...hmmm Food for thought!
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Reply #37 posted 02/01/06 12:00pm

Tom

avatar

Check out your local gay bars, there's several annual leather parties, one of them is called C.L.A.W. I believe, that go on throughout the year. I'm not real big into the scene, but I've been to a few of these with friends.

They have all kinds of contests and titles, like "Mr. Leather (Insert name of city)" and what not. It's almost like the drag queen pageants. It's a pretty big network of people around the country and around the world.

Lammastide, have you ever been down to The Leather Stallion on St. Clair? The whole bathroom is painted up with Tom of Finlandish looking guys. It's kind of amusing because they are staring at you while you do your thing, LOL.
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Reply #38 posted 02/01/06 2:47pm

Lammastide

avatar

Tom said:


Lammastide, have you ever been down to The Leather Stallion on St. Clair? The whole bathroom is painted up with Tom of Finlandish looking guys. It's kind of amusing because they are staring at you while you do your thing, LOL.

I'm not much of a bar hopper, but, yeah, I did let a friend drag me to the Stallion once. It was scary. lol (Although, I did discover that if I were available, I could apparently do pretty well among the leather boys cool)

Seriously, though... the leather scene has never appealed to me en masse, but the Stallion was fun in a campy way... and they've got a great patio in the warmer months. Never been to "The Toolshed" on Detroit Avenue, though. Have you?


By the way, I went to one leather club in New York City called "The Lure." Now THAT place is terrifying. omfg
[Edited 2/1/06 19:58pm]
Ὅσον ζῇς φαίνου
μηδὲν ὅλως σὺ λυποῦ
πρὸς ὀλίγον ἐστὶ τὸ ζῆν
τὸ τέλος ὁ χρόνος ἀπαιτεῖ.”
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Reply #39 posted 02/01/06 6:29pm

CynthiasSocks

avatar

Heiress said:

CynthiasSocks said:



wave Check out my avie! giggle


I've been admiring it. batting eyes


Then admire this! wink

http://i35.photobucket.co...24740a.jpg


And I'm so wearing my hair like this! biggrin
Socks still got butt like a leather seat...
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Reply #40 posted 02/01/06 7:40pm

Zelaira

I have his Book The Big One .....It's Great. The Village used to have his Comic Books and I know it's weird for a Girl to like that stuff but I DO.... I Have almost Every Mapplethorphe I can get my hands on....Wish I was able to see the Exhibit at the WHITNEY..... His photos especially with Lisa LYON is AMAZING. And has ANYBODY seen his DOCUMENTARY.....DADDY AND THE MUSCLE ACADEMY? EXCELLENT ..TOM OF FINLAND flick.
[Edited 2/1/06 20:03pm]
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Reply #41 posted 02/01/06 9:47pm

skcoSsaihtnyC

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Reply #42 posted 02/01/06 9:53pm

skcoSsaihtnyC

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Reply #43 posted 02/01/06 9:56pm

Lammastide

avatar

Geez, I'm glad the 70s are over! I HATE all these moustaches!! ill
Ὅσον ζῇς φαίνου
μηδὲν ὅλως σὺ λυποῦ
πρὸς ὀλίγον ἐστὶ τὸ ζῆν
τὸ τέλος ὁ χρόνος ἀπαιτεῖ.”
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Reply #44 posted 02/01/06 10:03pm

skcoSsaihtnyC

Lammastide said:

Geez, I'm glad the 70s are over! I HATE all these moustaches!! ill


Shhhhit!
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Reply #45 posted 02/01/06 10:06pm

skcoSsaihtnyC

My Tom "action" figure:

Front batting eyes

Back batting eyes
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Reply #46 posted 02/01/06 10:10pm

skcoSsaihtnyC

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Reply #47 posted 02/01/06 10:14pm

skcoSsaihtnyC

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Reply #48 posted 02/01/06 10:15pm

skcoSsaihtnyC

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Reply #49 posted 02/01/06 10:17pm

skcoSsaihtnyC

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Reply #50 posted 02/01/06 10:21pm

skcoSsaihtnyC

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Reply #51 posted 02/01/06 10:22pm

skcoSsaihtnyC

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Reply #52 posted 02/01/06 10:23pm

skcoSsaihtnyC



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Reply #53 posted 02/01/06 10:24pm

skcoSsaihtnyC

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Reply #54 posted 02/01/06 10:25pm

emm

avatar

i'm so innocent... i thought you were refering to fans of this


redface
doveShe couldn't stop crying 'cause she knew he was gone to stay dove
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Reply #55 posted 02/01/06 10:28pm

skcoSsaihtnyC

emm said:

i'm so innocent... i thought you were refering to fans of this


redface


lol and that shit is NASTY! biggrin
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Reply #56 posted 02/01/06 11:27pm

Zelaira

Feeling so Depressed maybe I'll buy a Gay Doll around Christopher tommorrow. Are these Magazines STILL AVAILABLE? I haven't even TRIED SOUTH BEACH....Could B. I actually have some Leather Incense in STORAGE.....
[Edited 2/1/06 23:29pm]
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Reply #57 posted 02/02/06 11:50pm

Heiress

CynthiasSocks said:

Heiress said:



I've been admiring it. batting eyes


Then admire this! wink

http://i35.photobucket.co...24740a.jpg


And I'm so wearing my hair like this! biggrin


eek you're making my thread NSFW!

smile
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Reply #58 posted 02/02/06 11:50pm

Heiress

emm said:

i'm so innocent... i thought you were refering to fans of this


redface


ah, try Young Living products - you have to order them from the website, but they're WAY better than Tom's...
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Reply #59 posted 02/02/06 11:52pm

Heiress

skcoSsaihtnyC said:



this one looks vintage!
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