purpledoveuk said:

The figther pilots 100% know that if they shoot this jet down no civilians in the city below will be hurt

.....behave yourself. Please!

Don't even make people go into the rest of what you just said.

What...whats wrong with that hypothetical question.

If the pilot knew 100% that no civilians would be killed/injured by their actions.

Is it wrong to draw comaprisons between a potential threat after 9/11 and a potential threat after 7/7 and 21/7 , is the American threat so more important that I shoudlnt dare put the 2 in the same paragraph?

We arent ever going to agree because I,understandably, upset you by the tone of my initial post and rightly or wrongly you arent even going to consider my comparisons or hypothetical questions.

We shall agree to disagree because its not worth arguing about and theres obviously too much hate in the world anyway



[Edited 7/23/05 14:48pm]
[Edited 7/23/05 14:49pm]

purpledoveuk said:

For starters, just look at the quote I pulled you up on.....

..."Shoot down a passenger plane over N.Y..... Fighter jet pilot knows 100% that zero casualties (never mind fatalities!) will result....."...

I mean, there's hypothetical and then there's "Alice In Wonderland make up the realms of reality as you go along inplausable" hypothetical.

This is also an absolutely ludicrous and inappropriate comparison to what has just happened in London, for more reasons then one!

And I just seem to be stating/pointing out the obvious here, everytime.
Goodness knows why I'm entertaining a response too. It's totally my fault.

I'm retiring from this one now. Peace be with you, Purpledoveuk. I mean you no harm.

Later.

Apparently da guy was acting suspicious and was wearing a trench coat. When i heard about da killing...i felt awful thinkin- well da dude had nothing 2 do with da bombingz. Sure, he looked suspicious...but five bulletz based of face value? This guy could've been a father, a husband, a brother etc. And if he didn't do the deed- his life was most definitely lost in vainz.

Fair enough lets leave this now

My hypothetical question was purely to point out that the police in London knew 100% that if they stopped this suspect with lethal force that no civilians would be hurt/killed...just this POTENTIAL killer. I just meant that IF the same could be transfered to 2 weeks after 9/11 (which obviously it never could) then peoples reactions may be different.

Anyway,as I said before - I started this in frustration at the idiotic suggestion that people were being killed just because they were Asian, I probably didnt word it properly and I apologise.

I guess the police here must just be jumpy if this guy really didnt have much of a reason to run from the police...god know that the police and law here are usually pussys who let anybody get away with anything (peadophiles...3 months in prison????, more time for burgulary that rape???).


if ya wanna lock this to stop it rumbling on and on be my guest

As the news first came though, before we knew that he was innocent, I did wonder why they made the decision to shoot at all. If he'd have been a terrorist I would have thought that he would have been far more valuable alive. That he was actually pinned down when it happened made me wonder if one of the officers had panicked. I think it's important that we have a police force and a government who don't panic in situations such as these.

I would hate to think we live in a country that has a "shoot first, ask questions later" policy. It has never been like that in Britain and I don't think we should allow ourselves to be bullied by terrorists into becoming that kind of nation.

I don't suppose we'll ever know why the man ran, but he was a foreigner in Britain and may have been confused. Certainly the fact that the 20 officers were in plain clothes may have had something to do with his decision. Perhaps the policy of having so many plain clothes officers following a person needs to be reviewed - surely from his perspective, it must have looked like he was being followed by a gang?

In any case, it was a split-second decision and was the wrong one. From the facts that have been presented to us so far, I don't think the police needed to shoot at that stage. It's a very sad event and I can't stop thinking about this poor young man who didn't deserve to die.

Reincarnate said:

I am with you on the thoughts about this poor man.

But from the police's view; a possible suspect, possibly carrying a bomb, running for a metro. I am sure the entire issue was confusing. I am not making excuses, but this is certainly one of the most puzzling times in policing.

Reincarnate said:

Problem is, if he is suspected to carry a bomb, merely pushing him to the ground gives no guaranty that he cannot detonate the bomb. And they're shooting in the head to make sure they don't detonate the bombs themselves.
Of course a full investigation is needed, but I don't think you can lokc those cops up forever.

I believe the 'official' line was that, in these situations, officers are trained to shoot to the head as shots to the body could and have set off bombs in the past.

In light of the fact that it would appear this guy was totally innocent and not linked to the bombs I can only assume that the Police must have had very reasonable (although now unfounded) suspicions taht he was up to something.

I suppose the maths added up for them - a guy in a huge coat when its hot, refuses to stop and then charges off towards a packed tube train with several officers in pursuit - that would appear suspicious to me, but appearances arent everything obviously.

I just hope that this wasn't a case of jumpy cops and that this officer,upon reflection, would have made the same decisions again...at least that way he knows in his mind that he didnt just shoot a random person because he paniced.

This whole story just goes to prove that there is sometimes a very fine line between reacting and over-reacting.

I wouldn't want to be seen to criticise the police over this; had he been a terrorist, we would have all been thankful that they acted so decisively. But I do think we need the inquiry to focus on the best way of handling these situations in the future. I think the public and the police need to be made aware of why this man was shot five times after he had been pinned down. Perhaps his hands were out of sight,and hidden under his body as he fell - to me, that's a crucial point.

Reincarnate said:

I couldn't have put it better myself.

It is terribly tragic and sad, and my heart goes out to his family, and those who had to witness such a thing at close-range. He wouldn't be the first one to run to catch a tube, and won't be the last. For all we know, he may have heard them shouting for someone to stop, and not even realised it was him.

We just don't know, and maybe never will.

All we can do is wait and see what the investigation reveals.

Until then RIP Jean Charles de Menezes

Matuzinho Otone, right, is comforted by an undidentified relative as
he holds a picture of his son Jean Charles de Menezes at their home
near Gonzaga, Brazil, Sunday, July 24, 2005.

Menezes, 27, was killed Friday, July 22, in London, at the Stockwell
subway station as police investigated the series of botched transit
bombings a day earlier and the July 7 attacks that killed some 56 people.
Photo: © Victor R. Caivano
[Edited 7/24/05 9:10am]

calldapplwondery83 said:

If they thought he was carrying a bomb, why did they let him enter the station in the first place? Wouldn't it make more sense to take him down outside?

The only thing this incident does, is prove that terrorism is effective. People are very scared.

JoeyMFinCoco said:

and many police are exteremely imcompetant.

They clearly panicked..

It just goes to prove that you dont want to look too swarthy at the moment. I bet if you were blond, blue eyed and pale you wouldn't get shot in the same circumstance.

bkw said:

Sorry Brett, but I gotta disagree with that statement.