Ok...I am the teacher. I have posted the assignment with complete directions on the board. A student doesn't adhere to the directions and does the assignment wrong. Another student observes the poorly done work, but still subscribes to it because this student didn't take the time to read the directions either and harps on the teacher about telling the student the work has been done wrong. The teacher then tells the second student she is just as wrong as the first, if not moreso, for not reading the directions on her own as well before making a defense for work done incorrectly.

In this org court of public opinion. Which student is more wrong?

the second

MarieLouise said:

I agree....Whap!

DexMSR said:

It was pretty clear that you would.

Personally I can't say from what you've written if it was the first or the second student or the teacher's fault. It could have been a poorly written instruction from the start, it could have been a poor or unfocused student. In either case, if I was the teacher I'd start by examining my own instruction if two students didn't understand it. It is the teacher's duty to make sure that all students understand an assignment.

retina said:

All the clearly stated directions were on the board.

DexMSR said:

Some students find it difficult to understand written instructions in general. They might need verbal explanation and might also be too shy to ask for it. That said, I understand the teacher's situation since I've worked as a teacher myself. It's not always easy to make sure that everybody has understood everything. One thing is for certain though; it's not enough to ask "have you all understood this?". Nobody will speak up then. The best you can do is regularly and randomly ask some students to repeat and explain the instruction they've just been given. That will keep them all on their toes.

Like I said though, I don't know enough about this particular situation. The two students might have been idiots that didn't want to learn.

retina said:

Both students are seeming bright students. It is just the fact that the second co-signed WITHOUT READING THE INSTRUCTIONS AT ALL...is what I have the problem with.

i know the answer to this one!



"the doctor was his mother."

Anxiety said:

DexMSR said:

Yeah, sometimes you get a student with an attitude. That can be tricky. You don't want to play their game and be bitchy to them too, but you don't want to just let them walk all over you. Is this a real situation? If so, how did you handle it?

retina said:

I basically scrutunized the second for cosigning blindly on the subject. Because they chose to fight a cause without knowing how the ground rules were setup and followed someone else's errors causing their own "worse" demise.

Ya know, if the student has a question about directions, freakin' ASK. If you think the directions sound awkward, or if someone is obviously doing them wrong, and you know it but you do them wrong as well, ASK. Sometimes the bright students think they can get away with this crap because they are "bright".

Second.

Excuses excuses. Kids need to learn stop making them and start taking care of business.


M

bluesbaby said:

A lot of students are too shy to ask. Others think they understand but don't. That's why the teacher has to make an extra effort to verify their understanding, no matter how unfair it may seem to the teacher.

the second.... but if u are the teacher i wouldnt be arguing anything
be edit
[Edited 7/7/05 13:27pm]

DexMSR said:

I guess I'd have failed too ... I'm sorry but I don't understand this part. Were they collaborating on the work and the second student blindly followed the wrong instructions, being too lazy to clarify what was right? Or were they supposed to be working separately and the second student copied the first ones work?
[Edited 7/5/05 15:06pm]

serious answer: what's more important, the product or the process leading to the product? if the end result is acceptable, or if it even shows some kind of promise or spark, then it could be argued that the process doesn't matter. but if the whole point of the assignment was to experience the process, then it could be argued that the end product doesn't matter.

did that make any sense?

retina said:

But we don't know that he didn't say "any questions, anything you don't understand?" I see what you mean, as well. I am just in a crappy mood.

Both. Neither student followed directions.
[Edited 7/5/05 15:09pm]

Anxiety said:

You're touching on the kind of thoughts that has made language teachers accept different types of errors depending if it's a language skills lesson (speaking, writing, listening, reading) or a language systems lesson (vocabulary, phonology, grammar). If it's language skills then so-called "developmental" errors are usually accepted, i.e. the process is more important than the end result and the overall meaning is prioritized over detailed accuracy. If it's a language systems lesson, then the end result is very important since accuracy is crucial. The process is still important of course, but what matters is that it comes out right in the end (and often there isn't really a process to speak of since the students are simply memorizing certain rules). This can be applied to other fields of study too.

So yes, you are making sense even though I personally think you're playing down the importance of the end result a bit too much, at least when it comes to certain fields of study.

retina said:

no, i totally have come to understand the importance of learning process, though i'm still not completely sold that it's the end-all and be-all if someone has a talent that allows them to create an end product that is in some way remarkable.

i used to date someone who would argue with me for hours about content vs. mechanics...being a big fan of outsider and folk art (including literature and music), i'm of a strong mind that it's the core of the work that's important, not the dotting of "i"s or the crossing of "t"s. i'm not saying my opinion has more value - it's just my point of view. and i'm also not saying that proper communication and writing skills aren't extremely important, because they are.

Anxiety said:

Aren't you saying that the process is more important than the end result twice here? Just wanting to clarify.



This sounds more like a form vs content discussion rather than process vs end result?



I didn't think you were saying that.

Slightly Maybe it's because it's in the middle of the night here.

retina said:

no. i'm saying that i used to be a big fan of end result over process, but in recent years i've come to appreciate the importance of process. but if i had to pledge loyalty to one or the other in some kind of weirdo polarized world, i'd still lean toward end product. does that make any more sense?





well, yeah - i was digressing a bit, but i thought you were too.



yay!

Anxiety said:

Yes. The artist in me adores you for it and the teacher in me despises you for it (for what you said, that is, not for making sense).

Anxiety said:

Well, my whole damn post was one long digression from the original thread topic, so yeah.

Edit: clarification
[Edited 7/5/05 16:23pm]

more wrong ?

What did you say..i really didnt wanna read that I kinda stopped when it said something about directions

Mach said:

i think they meant "more wronger".

Anxiety said:

morer wrongerest

Well, it's the teacher's problem, I know that much.

Good instructions are rarely misunderstood, but who knows what goes on in the minds of some students. I say send them to the corner for 10 minutes.

DexMSR said:

the second ...because not only did they not adhere to the directions but they didn't take the time to fully understand the directions and instead took misguided work of the other student