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PrintableThis has turned into a really interesting discussion (against my earlier misconceptions). I apologise, Nero, for my earlier cynicism and hostility.
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 not in mine !
(replying to byronic) [Edited 7/7/05 11:20am] | |
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byronic said: self hate is not healthy, embrace the killer inside of you, it's in your dna, killing is nature.
This sounds rather clueless... This has nothing to do with self-hate but about the weakness that humans display and the destruction it brings with them... As long as there are humans this world will continue without harmony... Neversin. O(+>NIИ<+)O
“Is man merely a mistake of God's? Or God merely a mistake of man's?” - Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche | |
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Reincarnate said: This has turned into a really interesting discussion (against my earlier misconceptions). I apologise, Nero, for my earlier cynicism and hostility.
x  Agreed. It's been quite stimulating. | |
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Neversin said: byronic said: self hate is not healthy, embrace the killer inside of you, it's in your dna, killing is nature.
This sounds rather clueless... This has nothing to do with self-hate but about the weakness that humans display and the destruction it brings with them... As long as there are humans this world will continue without harmony... Neversin. what is weak about being the most succesful predator on the planet? without humanity, this world would continue with killing and death and suffering one animal against another. life is suffering, life feeds on death. humans didn't start it, and without us it'll continue so why should we feel guilty about being part of the natural cycle? I do believe that those who haven't killed their own meat at least once are hypocrites. And it is about self hate, killing and eating meat is as natural to humanity as having two legs and two eyes, to say that humans are evil or weak because of eating meat is equivalent to saying that humans are evil or weak because they walk upright. it's part of our species, it's part of our nature. | |
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byronic said: And it is about self hate, killing and eating meat is as natural to humanity as having two legs and two eyes, to say that humans are evil or weak because of eating meat is equivalent to saying that humans are evil or weak because they walk upright.
Eating meat maybe natural to you but humans get by fine without it and they don't need it... So you make absolutely no sense up there... it's part of our species, it's part of our nature.
Again it's obviously just part of your nature and not part of our species... Humans can survive easily without flesh intake it's as simple as that... Neversin. O(+>NIИ<+)O
“Is man merely a mistake of God's? Or God merely a mistake of man's?” - Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche | |
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Neversin said: Shorty said: IF push does come to shove it will be interesting to see if you just accept your fate...or if you will suddenly realize that killing and eating something ain't so bad.
I don't consider myself weak, so yes, I will accept my fate and will never take the life of an animal if I can't give it back to it... IF push comes to shove...my family and I will survive...and you will be dead. good luck to ya.
 And you'll keep destroying whatever is left of this planet in the process... Neversin. [Edited 7/7/05 11:16am] I'm sorry but...I think you're full of shit. Do you feel a tiger is lazy and weak because it kills to feed it's family? I feel just accepting your fate and letting your family starve to death is weak,not strong at all, not much of a man at all, good luck to your wife and children if you ever have the fortune to be so lucky. You are so out of touch....if this world were just full of animals and no humans...they would "destroy" the planet too...they'd over populate and eat all the vegitation untill it could no longer support them and they would inturn all starve and die...so...what are you getting at? all living beings are terrible killers and we should all just stop living and die so the planet could thrive...to only be hit by a comit and burned up anyway? yeah...what a plan. I suppose you don't drive a gas (petro) powered car? or use any kind of fossil fuels at all? or kill any bugs, or I supposed plant life is a life so..you do kill plant life right? and bugs don't count at all too right? You're a hypocrite of the upmost power. haha...I laugh in your face silly kid. I think the world we live in today can support both carnivores and herbavors [Edited 7/7/05 12:55pm] "not a fan"  yeah...ok | |
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Neversin said: byronic said: And it is about self hate, killing and eating meat is as natural to humanity as having two legs and two eyes, to say that humans are evil or weak because of eating meat is equivalent to saying that humans are evil or weak because they walk upright.
Eating meat maybe natural to you but humans get by fine without it and they don't need it... So you make absolutely no sense up there... it's part of our species, it's part of our nature.
Again it's obviously just part of your nature and not part of our species... Humans can survive easily without flesh intake it's as simple as that... Neversin. they CAN survive, a cat or dog CAN survive on a vegetarian diet,any carnivore can survive on vegetarian diet, but is it natural? No. eating meat is part of human nature, vegetarians are going against their own nature. | |
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byronic said: Neversin said: Again it's obviously just part of your nature and not part of our species... Humans can survive easily without flesh intake it's as simple as that... Neversin. they CAN survive, a cat or dog CAN survive on a vegetarian diet,any carnivore can survive on vegetarian diet, but is it natural? No. eating meat is part of human nature, vegetarians are going against their own nature. I hate to say it but you're right. Like I said previously in this thread, as long as you eat food in moderation and don't overdue it than you're all right. | |
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Shorty said: I'm sorry but...I think you're full of shit.
I think you're weak... What's your point? Do you feel a tiger is lazy and weak because it kills to feed it's family?
No, but then again I've never seen a tiger planting crops to feed its family... I feel just accepting your fate and letting your family starve to death is weak,not strong at all, not much of a man at all, good luck to your wife and children if you ever have the fortune to be so lucky.
Well if you're that weak that you NEED flesh for your family to survive then you're even more pathetic than I gathered you were, since I can get by fine with just plants and the food they provide... And for your information I will never put children in this fucked up, backwards society "ruled" by self-proclaimed rulers and continue the process of destruction... You are so out of touch...
I'm still alive so I must be doing something right... So who the fuck are you to say someones out of touch? Oh right, you're an Amerikkkan... if this world were just full of animals and no humans...they would "destroy" the planet too...they'd over populate and eat all the vegitation untill it could no longer support them and they would intern all starve and die
Or, unlike retarded humans, they would ADAPT... so...what are you getting at? all living beings are terrible killers and we should all just stop living and die so the planet could thrive...to only be hit by a comit and burned up anyway? yeah...what a plan.
I see you majored in stupid... I just said this world needed harmony and as long as there are humans, who are so bent up on killing, that will never happen... I suppose you don't drive a gas (petro) powered car? or use any kind of fossil fuels at all?
Yes I do... But I don't see the connection between driving a car and eating meat one doesn't need... or kill any bugs
I don't kill bugs, I'm not some pathetic bitch that screams at the sight of a fucking fly and just squats it, just opening a window will do... or I supposed plant life is a life so..you do kill plant life right?
No, they provide food... Unlike you obviously I don't bite the hand that feeds me... and bugs don't count at all too right? You're a hypocrite of the upmost power. haha...I laugh in your face silly kid.
I laugh at your obvious retarded assumptions, silly old woman... I think the world we live in today can support both carnivores and herbavors
I never said it couldn't and if you actually read my initial posts and used your limited brain you'd see that I don't dismiss carnivores I just don't agree with their hypocrisy of eating and supporting animal death and yet be so patheticly affectatious about human deaths... Neversin. O(+>NIИ<+)O
“Is man merely a mistake of God's? Or God merely a mistake of man's?” - Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche | |
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just when we were saying that this has been a surprisingly civilized thread, things are getting ugly.
come on, guys, is the name calling really necessary? one thing we should clarify in this discussion - there's a lot of talk about herbivores and carnivores now... let's keep in mind that we are omnivores, which means we CAN digest both plant and animal foods, but we're not relying on one or the other exclusively. can we survive on an all-meat diet? sure, i mean, some people are pretty damn close. can we survive on an all-veg diet? absolutely, and studies have shown that vegetarians are healthier and live an average of 7 years longer. so while health is one factor, it comes down to ethics, really. and that's where it becomes very personal. we choose one lifestyle over another. | |
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neversin said:
a bunch of fuckin' booolshit!
THANK GOD that you don't want any children you've never killed a bug? LIAR! animals would adapt and not over populate or would they adapt to not eating or would they adapt...and start eating MEAT!? you are totally out of it. keep argueing...you're really impressive...really. what a joke! "not a fan" yeah...ok | |
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IrresistibleB1tch said: byronic said: hunting, and the teamwork and strategy involved in it, is the REASON that our brains evolved speach and logic and all our technilogical abilities. Meat eating is Natural, it's what humans were designed to do, we are the greatest predator on the planet and anyone with a respect for the natural order of things would understand that. we were created to kill. i actually kinda believe what you just said, but it leaves several open questions: * how many animals did our ancestors kill per person? did they eat the flesh of several different animals every day, as many in the "developed" world do? * are we still evolving? and if so, can plant-based proteins get us there as well? * was compassion part of that evolution? should we be more compassionate now than we were a million or so years ago? * (this one is tricky - few of you will likely agree with this one, but i'll post it anyway) is the suffering of beings justified by the more rapid advancement of another being? if we had evolved more slowly with plant-based proteins, yet had evolved to the same level eventually, would that have been preferable? not to bump my own post or anything... 
i'd really love to hear some opinions on this. | |
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Shorty said: THANK GOD that you don't want any children
I don't put them here because I know that a fucked up society like this one is not worthy of them and I wouldn't do that to them... you've never killed a bug? LIAR!
Let's rephrase it for thickheaded idiots like yourself: I don't kill bugs ON PURPOSE (sure I eat a few when I'm asleep or step on a few every now and then, who doesn't?) animals would adapt and not over populate or would they adapt to not eating or would they adapt...and start eating MEAT!? you are totally out of it.
You really are too stupid for words, aren't you? Let me give you a hint: Humans... Animals... keep argueing...you're really impressive...really.
Unlike you, I see, I'm not here to impress people but just to discuss THE TOPIC AT HAND and you're obviously not, so goodbye and lay of the meat cos it seemingly confuses you and makes you rather thickheaded and agressive... what a joke!
So much for having a conversation... Useless Amerikkkan... Neversin. O(+>NIИ<+)O
“Is man merely a mistake of God's? Or God merely a mistake of man's?” - Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche | |
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IrresistibleB1tch said: byronic said: hunting, and the teamwork and strategy involved in it, is the REASON that our brains evolved speach and logic and all our technilogical abilities. Meat eating is Natural, it's what humans were designed to do, we are the greatest predator on the planet and anyone with a respect for the natural order of things would understand that. we were created to kill. i actually kinda believe what you just said, but it leaves several open questions: * how many animals did our ancestors kill per person? did they eat the flesh of several different animals every day, as many in the "developed" world do? No, they didn't and number of animals per person is kind of hard to say too as hunting was done by a group of tribesman and not one on one as it is often done today. most of the animals that humans consume were bred specifically to be eaten, if it were not for us eating them, they wouldn't exist and if we stopped eating them what would happen to them? would we have massive heards of cows roaming the land? would they starve and die because there aren't enough resources for them? so then what is more cruel, raising them to be slaughtered, or allowing them to starve naturally? not to mention that releasing all of our food animals into the wild would be devistating to the environment. * are we still evolving? and if so, can plant-based proteins get us there as well? * was compassion part of that evolution? should we be more compassionate now than we were a million or so years ago? What is compassion? is it more compassionate to allow an animal to suffer needlessly by starving to death, or being ripped apart in an inhumane way be natural predators, or is it more compassionate to keep the animal well fed and healthy and kill it quickly and humanely? * (this one is tricky - few of you will likely agree with this one, but i'll post it anyway) is the suffering of beings justified by the more rapid advancement of another being? if we had evolved more slowly with plant-based proteins, yet had evolved to the same level eventually, would that have been preferable? | |
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Byronic said: most of the animals that humans consume were bred specifically to be eaten, if it were not for us eating them, they wouldn't exist and if we stopped eating them what would happen to them? would we have massive heards of cows roaming the land? would they starve and die because there aren't enough resources for them? so then what is more cruel, raising them to be slaughtered, or allowing them to starve naturally? not to mention that releasing all of our food animals into the wild would be devistating to the environment.
absolutely - that would be cruel, and i don't think anybody is suggesting that. can you imagine a gradual phase-out of farm animals? as people adopt a veg diet, breeding of these animals could slow down and eventually stop altogether. We are still evolving, yes, but i don't believe that our future evolution has anything to do with our food sources, but more to do with our technology and ability to manipulate genes. our future evolution will be guided by us.
at what point in our evolution did it stop being dependent on our food sources then? and what if we had adopted a vegetarian diet at that point? would we be healthier in general? and how many animals would have been spared a miserable life and a painful slaughter? What is compassion? is it more compassionate to allow an animal to suffer needlessly by starving to death, or being ripped apart in an inhumane way be natural predators, or is it more compassionate to keep the animal well fed and healthy and kill it quickly and humanely?
your first question is a rhetorical one, i'm sure, so i'll leave it at that. again, you are assuming that we are talking about free-roaming herds of dairy cows - that's not the idea. i don't know where you live, but modern farming practices are far from the idyllic mountain meadow scene the dairy industry tries to sell to us here in the States. for example, here in North Carolina, large ranges of the middle of the state is used for large pork producers (Smithfield, the largest producer, owns 70% of the state's pigs). animals in these massive production facilities seldom if ever see the light of day, are pumped full of antibiotics in an attempt to combat rampant infections, and are slaughtered in mass quantities in ever-faster slaughter production lines - often they are not completely stunned when their throats are slit. huge chicken farms squeeze 8 to 12 full-size chickens into small wire cages, stacked on top of each other. feces from one cage trickles down to the lower cages. the animals are so panicked that they try to peck each other to death - to avoid that, their beaks are sliced off with a hot blade when they are young. they never see the light of day either. so much for "well fed and healthy" and "killed quickly and humanely". sorry, but that's just not today's reality. and i doubt that we would have evolved at all had we not eaten meat, other than the benifits of protein on our brains we wouldn't have had to develop language and toolmaking had we not required them to hunt.
i could imagine that humans would have found plant protein sources that would have eventually gotten us there as well. but of course that's all speculation, and i'll be the first to admit that. language and toolmaking skills were certainly enhanced by hunting, but also by gathering, i'm sure. thanks for giving me your thoughts on these questions - i appreciate your time and thoughtfulness. | |
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IrresistibleB1tch said: one thing we should clarify in this discussion - there's a lot of talk about herbivores and carnivores now... let's keep in mind that we are omnivores, which means we CAN digest both plant and animal foods, but we're not relying on one or the other exclusively. can we survive on an all-meat diet? sure, i mean, some people are pretty damn close. can we survive on an all-veg diet? absolutely, and studies have shown that vegetarians are healthier and live an average of 7 years longer. so while health is one factor, it comes down to ethics, really. and that's where it becomes very personal. we choose one lifestyle over another. [/b] | |
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animals would eat us given the chance  | |
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charlottegelin said: animals would eat us given the chance
Damn right. It's all about the survival of the fittiest and there is no sense in bullshiting around about it.[Edited 7/8/05 6:39am] | |
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Neversin said: byronic said: we wouldn't have our brains if we didn't kill first. so we couldn't have used our brains to find something other than meat to eat as we wouldn't have advanced brains if we didn't kill.
Weird theory and not credible... Pathetic... There's nothing true about that... Humans are only important to themselves (and made important by themselves) just like any other parasite they just destroy, the world is better off without them so that makes them the least important life on this planet... And since humans aren't that intelligent to begin with... there is nothing wrong with being human.
No not with being human but human itself is one huge mistake... Neversin.  here's Neversin again with his oh so predictable "humans are unintelligent" garbage. Since humans are so stupid, what exactly are you doing that's technologically and intellectually advancing mankind. Coming on prince.org bitching about how humans are useless and pathetic as if you're not a human without flaws yourself doesn't count. For now, I think it'd be best if you took yourself down from that imaginary pedestal you're placing yourself on. | |
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MsLegs said: charlottegelin said: animals would eat us given the chance
Damn right. [color=green]It's all about the survival of the fittiest and there is no sense in bullshiting around about it.[/color]did you read any of the stuff posted above? can you really justify boiling your choices down to "survival of the fittest"? | |
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Neversin said: Shorty said: THANK GOD that you don't want any children
I don't put them here because I know that a fucked up society like this one is not worthy of them and I wouldn't do that to them... Unlike you, I see, I'm not here to impress people but just to discuss THE TOPIC AT HAND and you're obviously not, so goodbye and lay of the meat cos it seemingly confuses you and makes you rather thickheaded and agressive... what a joke!
So much for having a conversation... Useless Amerikkkan... Neversin. keep talking genius! "not a fan" yeah...ok | |
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IrresistibleB1tch said: MsLegs said: Damn right. [color=green]It's all about the survival of the fittiest and there is no sense in bullshiting around about it.[/color]did you read any of the stuff posted above? can you really justify boiling your choices down to "survival of the fittest"? A Great Example of The Survival Of The Fittest are the Great White Sharks which are along the beaches. | |
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MsLegs said: IrresistibleB1tch said: did you read any of the stuff posted above? can you really justify boiling your choices down to "survival of the fittest"? A Great Example of The Survival Of The Fittest are the Great White Sharks which are along the beaches. i'm not disputing the concept, i'm asking you if it truly applies here. | |
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IrresistibleB1tch said: MsLegs said: A Great Example of The Survival Of The Fittest are the Great White Sharks which are along the beaches. i'm not disputing the concept. Good. | |
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MsLegs said: IrresistibleB1tch said: i'm not disputing the concept. Good. fair enough - seems like you're done discussing. have a great day! | |
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MsLegs said: charlottegelin said: animals would eat us given the chance
Damn right. It's all about the survival of the fittiest and there is no sense in bullshiting around about it.
[Edited 7/8/05 6:39am] Most animals that kill for meat, eat it. They don't slaughter needlessly or kill more than they need. Time and again we have driven animals to extinction by hunting needlessly or taking away their natural habitat. Eventually, yes, it will be survival of the fittest ... and we will be far the poorer for it  | |
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Reincarnate said: MsLegs said: Damn right. It's all about the survival of the fittiest and there is no sense in bullshiting around about it.
[Edited 7/8/05 6:39am] Most animals that kill for meat, eat it. They don't slaughter needlessly or kill more than they need. Time and again we have driven animals to extinction by hunting needlessly or taking away their natural habitat. Eventually, yes, it will be survival of the fittest ... and we will be far the poorer for it I totally agree with your point. | |
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