MICHAEL ERIC DYSON QUESTIONS COSBY COMMENTS: Penn Professor’s new book examines debate.



*University of Pennsylvania professor Michael Eric Dyson has written a book that takes Bill Cosby to task for putting the parenting skills of low-income blacks on blast.

Dyson’s book "Is Bill Cosby Right? Or Has the Black Middle Class Lost Its Mind?" from Basic Civitas Books, paints a picture of what he calls an "Afristocracy" of lawyers, physicians, bankers, entertainers, intellectuals and political leaders, squared off against the "Ghettocracy," made up of single mothers on welfare, at-risk kids, working poor men and women and those with criminal records, reports the San Francisco Chronicle.


A professor at UPenn’s Center for Africana Studies, Dyson said his book is meant to be a point-by-point response to Cosby's statements about the African American underclass, a move some have criticized as a black-on-black attack on one of the nation's most beloved entertainers.


"Don't nobody want to excuse people who are messing up," he told The Chronicle while in the Bay Area last week. "None of us is trying to excuse behavior that is self-destructive. We do want to look at why that behavior is taking place."


Dyson took offense to Cosby’s accusation of complacency within the black disenfranchised.

Cosby stated: "No longer is it a personal embarrassment because they're pregnant without a husband. No longer is a boy considered an embarrassment if he tries to run away from being the father of the unmarried child. Ladies and gentlemen, the lower economic and lower middle economic people are not holding up their end in this deal."

Dyson calls Cosby's remarks "mean-spirited" and says many conservative commentators have used Cosby to justify their own stereotypical views of blacks.

"If that had been a white man, we'd have gone off," Dyson told the newspaper. "If Rush Limbaugh had said that, we'd be up in arms."

Dyson also says Cosby was mistaken when he talked of 50 percent school dropout rates among black youth. The current dropout rate for blacks is actually 17 percent, compared with 9 percent for whites. The professor also called out Cosby’s lack of racial content on his NBC sitcom “The Cosby Show.”


"Mr. Cosby has never lambasted white America the way he has black America," noted Dyson, who said he would like to discuss the subject with Cosby in a public forum. "I'm not against airing dirty laundry," said Dyson. "(But) let's put everybody's dirty laundry on the table."

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The feedback(Very VEEERRRY long):

Name: nightshift Comment: I'd be a front-row-ticket-holder to that event. Not trying to hate, but I see both sides, I'd like to see BOTH sides put out there together. It would be hotter-than-the-4th-of-July!!

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Name: B00TANEB00TUS Comment: Yo...let 'em both go at it...but let Dr. West moderate the event...I'd pay a chunk o' change for that. Personally, I think it's more of a generational thing. I just don't think we can make blanket statements...I can see Cosby's frustration...How long is it gonna take for Black folks to get it together?...While Dyson says the the statistics aren't always valid and that the deck is stacked against Black folks...There's many schools of thought here...If you've ever worked in the public school systems you'd know that racism exsists and is very deep...Man, there are many reasons why Black folks are having a hard time getting out of the barrel...I'm sure the folks on this board can name many more...A few of us climb out but the majority just hang on...

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Name: archcookies Comment: I agree with what Mr. Cosby said, sorry we do have a problem here and to just bury our heads in the sand is not going to get it fixed. Nor can we beat up on Cosby because he made the statement. It's like the cat in the room sitting out in clear view and nobody acknowledge seeing it, why would you get mad at someone who asked "what is the cat doing here?" We have a major problem that is only going to get worse, if you don't think we have a problem ride public transportation for a week during the school term. Ride it with the kids from your local high school, you'd be embarrased at how ignorant and vulgar teens can be. It doesn't matter if there's old grey headed ladies sitting there, they will totally ignore them and cuss up a blue streak. Ya'll I am so dayum sick of seeing the young men with their pants hanging under their azzes---the person that started the trend was stupid and all the little wannabes are mindlessly following the trend. Most of these kids have very unstructured family lives, the parents are too busy doing their thing and fail to nurture and rear their children. It's sad let's not get mad at the man because he is a millionaire, he certainly does put tons of money back into the black community. It may not have been comfortable to hear what he said but for the most part he is not lying.

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Name: TJthemilitant Comment: You're right BOOTS re: the public school system. But you don't even have to be an employee to see that. He11, being a student was enough!

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Name: SpelmanRho Comment: My problem with Dr. Cosby's comments has always been that he pointed out the black lower class and lower middle class as acting a fool. Please half of these knuckles head out there screaming "Thug Life" ARE the children of the doctors and lawyers. There was a huge scandal back when I was in Jack and Jill about members from the St. Mountain/Lithonia chapter committing armed robbery. My friend's younger brother has that whole "hood rat" mentality, always talking about being from the 'hood and living on the "block". That little colored lives in a $160,000 home. Both of his parents are working professionals but he swears he's "hood" and wants to try to live like it. So if anyone is F-ing up in the black community it's everybody. It's seems like a lot people have this "C.R.E.A.M" thuggish mentality that has just got to stop. Or maybe they just get more press because they're crazy.

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Name: ELSBABY Comment: Archcookies, I agree with you totally. Hell many of us made those same comments about folk long before Bill said it and now that it is public news we want to straddle the fence. Putting all of Bill's personal business aside, he has put more kids through college out of his own dime than any other entertainer. I have no doubt that these two brothers have strong view points and each are valid. I tend to agree with Bill.

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Name: gr8st8 Comment: I usually agree with Dyson but on this issue, I'm siding with Cosby. I heard Dyson speak about this issue on the radio briefly and he comes across as a real opportunist trying to sell his book off the controversy. I do think it's important for people to parent their kids and keep their priorities straight. Anytime kids think that being book smart and articulate is "acting white" that's a problem and only hurts the black community in the end.

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Name: ICUH8N Comment: I agree with SpelmanRho, the problem with Cosby's statement is that he put all of society's ills on the Black underclass when it is not just poor Black people who are guilty. His comments were very stereotypical and should not have been directed at simply poor Black people, his actions were not unlike an Uncle Tom. The bad thing about it, HE is part of the problem he chastised..he admitted to having an affair (Remember Autmn Jackson? she was later convicted of extortion but he admitted to having sex with her mother) and has "allegedly" disrespected our Black women (recent drugging and groping allegations). Cosby should sit down and shut up because he makes himself look like a fool.

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Name: ATLGirl Comment: SpelmanRho --> I live in Decatur, when did this robbery take place. Any details you can give would be appreciated. You're right, middle class kids want to be "thugs."

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Name: mayday Comment: I would pay cash money to see those two on stage together. I like both men and both have valid points. I agree with a lot of the statements made by Bill Cosby but I am not going to lie and say that I am not disappointed and his reputation has been a little tarnished with his acts of indecency coming out of the closet.

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Name: ShadowKnows Comment: It would be very interesting to see these two debate. I see both sides. But I do disagree with Prof. Dyson on this one point: " "Mr. Cosby has never lambasted white America the way he has black America," noted Dyson...." "I'm not against airing dirty laundry," said Dyson. "(But) let's put everybody's dirty laundry on the table." No, this isn't about airing everyone's dirty luandry. This is a discussion about black America. Why should Cosby or Dyson or anyone start lambasting white America? That's a different subject. Let's stay on the topic - Black America - so we can have a thorough discussion. If we want to lambast white America (like that's going to do any good) let's make that a different debate at a different time.

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Name: musbdherbs Comment: I wish I could here the entire speech because I always get snipets and cut/paste. I've agree w/the majority of what Cosby said. If he talked about the lower class of blacks as if they are the source of the problem then I would really have a problem w/that. However, if he talked about the "lower class" of blacks while referencing a particular part of his speech then I don't know. I need to get a transcript or some'n becuz I'm confused. Spel...wasn't that in the early 90's?

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Name: mdcurry Comment: I agree with what most have posted, but I don't think that just because Cos has made some mistakes that have been made public he isn't partially correct in what he's saying and that he has no right to speak on issues. None of us are perfect, we ALL have fallen short, many in different ways, but the fact remains that none are perfect. The ONLY reason why his mess made it to the media is because he's rich. SpelmanRho, I agree there are a lot of middle, upper class kids (black, white and asian) who think it's the "in" thing to portray that thug life or act as if they're from the "hood". B00TANEB00TUS, I totally agree with you!

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Name: Secret Comment: I'm not surprised that most of you would agree with Cosby you people are made up of the choir he was preaching to. Most of you are too old to remember the truth about your own generation and too pompous to give a damn about this one. Everything is relative there is a reason that the black community is in despair. In order to help the situation we must first understand why things are the way they are now. Somebody in YOUR/Cosby generation didn't do their job right. Let’s talk about that. Oh I forgot fighting the truth is a part of your generation.

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Name: Limelighty Comment: I love Dr. Dyson and the brotha is so on point, I have had the pleasure of meeting him and he is truly humble and has mad love for his people, regardless of class. His book, "Why I Love Black Women" is excellent and I am glad to own a copy. In addition, he is a big hip hop head and appreciates quality rap music. As for Cosby, much of what he said I believe is true but could have been presented in a better forum. Unfortunately, despite what our scholars and leaders spew, people make choices in life and the choices one makes, makes them. Hell, we are fully aware of racism, and we also know that we have to continuously fight it by preparing ourselves i.e. education.

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Name: dcgal Comment: They're both right.

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Name: Stephanie Comment: How is a lying cheat going to dictate what's good and bad for black America? Point or no point. True, none of us are perfect but its double standard if you ask me. I wonder what Camille thinks about him trying to straighten out the black family when he's living proof why we have so many issues because the shiat sure starts from home and his home doesn't seem like the perfect family life. One of his daughters was hooked on drugs and then his infidelities...pulease. Nuggas are so quick to point the finger but always forget how many fingers are pointing back.

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Name: blackman Comment: hmmm...we certainly have a problem within the black community, but we should address it without having an elitist attitude. Blame can go all around. From the hood to the upity black folks that look down at others from the top porches of their ivory towers.

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Name: Sexee Comment: Good Morning, I am glad that someone is actually holding the man(bill) accountable. FOr the most part I agree with what he stated, but I also believe in "cause and effect" part of our situation. He stated that lower class are not holding up their end of the bargain. But he didn't point out the fact that this was a trickle down behavior problem. Parents giving their kids everything they didn't have so that they can re-live their childhood vocariously through them. The children grow up to be spoil brats, expecting the world to be handing to them on a silver platter (working hard is greek to them). Many black women were duped into to believing the lie sold that it's okay to be independent(you don't need a man). YOu can be a superwoman. Now we are living with hypertension, high blood pressure and countless other ailments that are stress related.

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Name: soulmusic101 Comment: SECRET, preach on.

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Name: SpelmanRho Comment: >MUSB & ATL: That was in the early 90's it was either my junior or senior year in high school when that hit the fan so around 94 or early 95. That was a huge scandal. Now people in J&J aren't necessarily rich, ('cause we weren't) but they weren't hurting either. These kids were committing armed robbery for kicks. Some ole' wanna’ be thugs.

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Name: Closet_Nerd_Girl Comment: "Don't nobody want to excuse people who are messing up," he told The Chronicle while in the Bay Area last week. "None of us is trying to excuse behavior that is self-destructive." I know this is nit-picking, but dang Mike, you are a college professor. I would expect you to use correct grammar in a public forum/interview. I hope you do so in your book. Sometimes it's the small things that cause people to not be taken seriously. OK, back to the subject, I can see the point of view of both men. I would love to see them come to terms with each other and start working towards solutions.

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Name: archcookies Comment: >Stephanie, the man hasn't even had his day in court and you've already convicted him. Sorry he had to be the one to make the statement but he wasn't lying. Whose does not have a dysfunctional family life, and as far as the daughter taking drugs, she did that on her own, let's not indict the father because of what the child has done. For the most part we are standing on the outside looking at these celebrities lives, we don't really know what is going on behind closed doors. I think what he said should have been said, it is the truth, I'd rather hear it from one of my people than to hear it from a white person. It's like you know a truth about your family member and the family can discuss it but someone from the outside could said the same thing and it would be offensive to you.

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Name: archcookies Comment: correction whose = who

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Name: SpelmanRho Comment: >Blackman: Exactly. Until everyone (regardless of their socio-economic class) stops: 1) Letting t.v. raise their children 2) Instilling the belief (through words and actions) that money is an end and not a MEANS to an end and 3) Begin to believe in/aspire to something greater (greater meaning more noble, or significant) than their own situation then we're all (black, white, yellow, whatever) screwed.

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Name: Angel Comment: Archcookies - Bill can't have his cake and eat it, too. If Cosby wants to blame the poor for the behavior of their children, why shouldn't Cosby's parenting be blamed for his daughter's issues. Personally, I believe there are several factors that affect the outcome of a child's behavior, but if he (Bill) wants to dish it out, he has to be willing to take it as well.

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Name: SpelmanRho Comment: >arch: Well isn't that kind of what Cosby is doing ? Blaming the "low class" parents for the stuff that their children do ? The only difference between Cos and NayNay is that Mr. Cosby had the funds to put his daughter (who is mad cool people by the way) in a treatment facility before she could seriously hurt her self and others. Plus parents need to accept the blame for the mess they start in their children's lives, whether it be from being abusive, neglectful or just down right too indulgent. A Parent's actions help to mold these children into the responsible adults or psychopaths they become. Can people over come their parent's nonsense ? Yes. It's done everyday, but it makes life even harder. Life throws enough stumbling blocks in a person's way as it is, people who act as their own children's stumbling block need their tails kicked and deserve the flak they get.

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Name: SpelmanRho Comment: >Angel: We were thinking the same thing.

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Name: Gemami Comment: There are so many excellent points… but the few that I totally agree with are SpellmanRho, B00TANEB00TUS, ICUH8N, Secret and Sexee. Cosby may have made some valid points but his representation was made from an elitist’s point of view. The Black community – from the top to the bottom – has issues that need to address – and you can’t address that problem from one side only. Cosby did not acknowledge the poor educational system that not teaching our children, the college/universities that not preparing students for the workforce, and that fact that a lot of Blacks are under and non employed. The “issues” he raised is not just limited to the poor and lower class… wealthy and middle class Black youth thinks it’s cool to be “thugged out”, smoking illegal drugs and live off their parents. Parents are buying their kids and not teaching them. Kids will have a playstation, a wide screen T.V., a cell phone and even a car before they have adequate books or even a computer.

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Name: gr8st8 Comment: Okay-- I agree with Cosby. Black people need to do better. I don't even see it as a class/socioeconomic thing. Everyone is obsessed with what they're wearing and not what they're learning. I've seen all kinds of people of varying economic status skip school to get the latest Jordans as soon as they come out. What's that about? Where are the priorities? I don't see how Dyson can defend that behavior, particularly as an educator. Perfect example--Lebron James' mother buys a Hummer and they live in the projects. Braylon Edwards buys a friggin Bentley before he gts drafted, let alone played a single down in a game. That child is middle class and went to college--that doesn't have anything to do with your economic class. That has everything to do with foolishness! Black people have got to do better.

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Name: mdcurry Comment: All of you who want to say that if the grown child goes out in the world and does bad things that it's a reflection on they way they are raised, need to really sit back and re-think that. I'll use me for an example, for many years my parents felt horrible because I had a child out of wedlock, I finally had to tell them to stop feeling like it was their fault. I was grown, I knew right from wrong, they raised me right way, me getting pregnant was my fault not theirs. I told them don't hang your head down and let folk point a finger of blame, because the good book says, "Train a child in the way that he should go, When he is old he will not depart from it". That doesn't mean that the child won't make mistakes, it simple means in the long run, they'll realize their mistakes and if time doesn't run out, they'll straighten up. So, NO, I don't believe that Cos is to blame for his daughter's drug use. Yes, in some ways the parents behavior affects a child, but at what point does the child accept responsiblity for it's own actions??? Some of us have had some rough childhoods and turn those negatives into a positive and some have had good childhoods and as adults are really screwed up. Please keep in mind, I'm talking about grown kids, not young children. Really, until you have a child of your own can truly understand what I'm trying to say.

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Name: gr8st8 Comment: and furthermore...I was reading an article about how people in the US are obsessed with luxury items. Buying certain items, make you feel better about yourself. For instance, you can't afford a fabulous lifestyle, so you spenda few hundred dollars on a fabulous purse to make you feel like you have a piece of that luxury. Society is so materialistic and everyone is trying to keep up with the Jones'instead of bettering themselves in a tangible way through education or entrepreneurship, hardwork and building wealth instead of just looking the part.

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Name: Secret Comment: @gr8st8 Excuse me, not all black people behave this way. So what if people decide to buy these things, it's their money. What black people need to do is realize that what works for them doesn’t necessarily work for everyone. Your way is not the only way, nor the only right way.

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Name: sultry Comment: Mr. Dyson is avery smart man

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Name: TJthemilitant Comment: Limelightly..I also had the pleasure of meeting Brother Dyson at one of his lectures at a local university during Black History Month a few years ago. He is indeed a very humble Brother! He autograghed my copy of "Why I Love Black Woman"...Excellent reading for us "Sistahs"!!

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Name: archcookies Comment: I am not saying that Cosby is perfect or even the perfect example. I don't necessarily care for him using "lower class" but the facts being what they are we have far too many indulgent, absent or clueless parents. We came from a pretty poor background but my family instilled in us pride for who we are and showed us with their example and encouragement that we could be anything we wanted to be. I am not poor anymore (not rich either) but I live a whole lot better than I did as a child, we were loved and all of my aunts and uncles could correct us. They were firm but loving what my Mother in particular instilled in me kept me from getting with the wrong crowd and started me on the road to a successful life.

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Name: mdcurry Comment: Archcookies, that's exactly what's missing in many homes, whether they be low, middle or upper class, parent's aren't parenting anymore. Maybe they didn't get it themselves or maybe they don't have the time to do it. But, if more parents took the time out to instill the basics, ie. love for self, love for family, pride, respect for self and others and strive to do and be the best, that it would help our race. At least slow down some of this nonesense that's going on today.

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Name: archcookies Comment: >md I agree completely.

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Name: Kofi Comment: The question is not if you side with Cos or Dyson. The fact is we as black people are all in the TOGETHER!!! Racism impacts us all regardless of income or education. Cos bought into the old divide and conquer game. Conversely, living in west Oakland I share some of Cosby's fustration. Im going to work every morning only to see young men hanging out on my steps shooting dice and drinking at 9am. That is not elitist that behavior is just triffling. On the other hand I understand that racism has taken many different forms. Decent paying entry level jobs have moved from the inner cities. Transportaion systems that serve primarily poor and people of color have been underfunded and has sustained service cuts. Lack of services, high interest sub prime loans, pay day advances all drain wealth from the community. We know what the problem is. The question for us since we are all in this together, what are we going to do about it? Either we all hang together or we will surely hang separately.

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Name: Secret Comment: You know I didn't grow up with money but I did get unconditional love. My mother always taught me never to look down on others. Today it seems as if this is (some) black peoples favorite past time looking down on their own people. I understand that everyone is not like me. I understand that there are weak people in this world and strong people. A true strong person understands that it is his/her job to help the weak not criticize and look down on them. I try to understand the root of the problem. Everything is not black and white. Every situation is unique. So with that being said there is no one cure all for black people. UNDERSTANDING is a start. Pointing fingers does not solve anything and that’s all Cosby did point a finger and told us nothing we did not already know.


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Yo thoughts?

well although i don't agree with the way cosby has worded his statements, there is some truth to it. i'm not gonna pick out each comment word for word but i'm from the englewood area of chicago and some of the stuff he talks about does exist. some black people from the old school era have a hard time with 'airing one's dirty laundry in front of white folks' no matter how bad. as before the black community needs to come together, those that have and those that don't have. and its ludicrus(sp) for him to assume that the problems that african americans have only lies with those that have low income, 'cause that shit aint true. i hope that instead of getting angry that african americans take from it and come up with a solution.

Dyson was on Nightline a few weeks ago when all this erupted again.

2the9s said:

i'm not sure if i like this dude Dyson. he seems feed off of other peoples media attention. at first he was just a 'expert' that would be on every crappy talk show. then when tupac died he had this overwhelming thing to go across town talking about it.

brownsugar said:

I wouldn't say he's feeding off Cosby's media attention. He sees Cosby as irresponsible for using his media exposure the way he does.

I haven't read any of his books. I'm only going on the few times that I've seen him.

2the9s said:

well i didnt see him last night. i'll make a better judgement when i see or read more about it. but some the things cosby says is true and alot of blacks don't want to admit it. but i can see how the way cosby is stating his opinions can be offensive to some.

Also here's a link to his bio page on his site:

http://www.michaelericdys...ssage.html

Interestingly, he calls himself a "public intellectual," which would account for his persistent presence in the media. That's also a phrase though that you don't really hear very much anymore, in this age of ivory-tower academes on the one hand, and talking-head pundits on the other.

The whole Cosby issue, from what I understand of it, takes place right on this faultline between popular culture and intellectual discourse.

Dyson's role is in some ways might be more important than Cosby's.

brownsugar said:

Yeah, I need to read more of this too. I didn't realize he even had a book about it!

And what is all that underneath? Is this taken from some other message board?

This is from eurweb.com

Anyway,,,,

For all the wrong ways, I sense that Bill's heart is on the right place(regardless of his approach).

But I do gotta say this and this is just how I look at it: If Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton had said this, the media wouldn't even be that concerned because they've done heard it all before but coming from Bill Cosby, it opens up a lot of stuff that sometimes Blacks fail to come to terms with.

I mean, sure it's "normal" for so-called "black leaders" to say this but when you got a "beloved entertainer" like BILL COSBY saying it, it speaks more volumes, you know? Shit, you can only hope OTHER black entertainers were as passionate about this as Bill is. It's a shame he seems to be THE ONLY ONE(no pun intended).

So I guess I can agree that he didn't need to address other races about their problems. People can look at Bill's words as either "bitching", "tough love" or "passionately telling us to get it together". Somehow we have to be more aware of what Bill was really trying to say sometimes. Because I DO agree with what Bill is saying when I read the full transcript of the speech he gave. I need to find it.

As for Dyson(Love his Why I Love Black Women book) his intent may be good but the bottomline is that there needs to be some accountability and that's one thing that is seriously lacking in the black community. I hate coddling people, especially grown muhfuccas, and it gets to a point where people need hear the truth. That's the first step in restructuring the black community. You can't fix the problem if you remain silent about it and ignore it. IMO, that's what Bill was doing.

Harlepolis said:

I have to agree 100%.

My take is although some folks thought Bill's approach was harsh, there was no misunderstanding what he was saying.
He went directly to the point he wanted to make.

Do I think his statements are true of all "the lower economic and lower middle economic people"? No.
However I do believe it's a large enough percentage for concern.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...rmusic.htm

theAudience said:

my thoughts exactly