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PrintableI think the important thing being discussed in this thread is that people in relationships (in the U.S. at least) forget to nuture and care for one another, male and female.
The U.S. culture is so caught up in "me me me" all the time that we don't realize how self-centered we can be. I think when people look back to the 50's as "the good ole days", they are wishing for a less egotisical, more communal and caring society. The fifties ideal is much different than the fifties reality, so a solution would not involve going backwards to the reality of that time, but just using the ideal to help pinpoint what is missing from our culture today. What it comes down to is showing those you love that you love them, being conscious of doing the small things that mean a lot, and caring for other people as much as you care for yourself. As independent as people like to act in the U.S., we couldn't survive without others and it's important for us to recognize and respect that, and to honor and cherish those we love. In the kitchen, under the car, who cares who is where as long as it's being done out of mutual love, sexiness and respect, yeah? Being loving does not = being weak, dependent or subservient. | |
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CarrieMpls said: DigitalDooDoo said: I agree with the gist of what bkw said, but I don't agree with what you've said in response... a woman can CERTAINLY make a man, who is by default a man, feel even MORE truly masculine. and vice versa for a woman of course. the two sexes are the ying and yang of the energy of the universe; how can we NOT nurture each other. we are MEANT to improve each others' own natural human nature, man and woman. I wouldn't agree at all. I don't think anyone's MEANT to make anyone feel more or less of the gender they are. What about gay people? Are each partner to make each other "more of a man" or woman also? Why are we so tied to gender roles? yes, basically. the male and female energy and the way it intertwines in human relationships applies to EVERYONE. | |
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JackieBlue said: This is the hottest thread on here at the moment. I should have commented before but spent too much time lurking and working.
I don’t think any gender should need someone to make them feel more of who they already are. However, I do think there are energies that may compliment who we are and bring forth that which is already there. Who decides what a woman should do to keep her man? Every union is different and what one man may need may be very different for another. I don’t know if anyone should do anything to keep someone. You do certain things to nurture and share with your partner and the relationship but people should stay because they want to and that's based on a lot of things, not simply because they were kept well. This reminds me of something I read by author Gary Zukav. There is the New Male and the New Female and both oppose the concepts of the Old Male and Old Female. Their needs and outlooks are very different than the old stereotypical or traditonal gender roles. A New Male seeks a New Female. He’s not looking for a woman to do traditional roles like cook and clean or even stroke his ego. A New Female is not looking for a man to protect or provide for her or flash his prowess around. Both choose a partner to accompany them through their life and/or spiritual growth. They work with the needs of their particular partner, not of the partner’s gender thus this works for all unions not just male/female. More often than not, people say they want the attributes that fit a New Male or Female but deep down they want the Old one and while there’s nothing wrong with that if they’re not clear on what they really want they’ll have a hard time attracting the person that works in harmony with them. As for American women being different, the U.S. is very different in terms of their outlook on quality of life, spiritual foundation or lack thereof, priorities and the liberation they so recently obtained than some other countries particularly non-Western. Maybe how non-American women treat their men and their relationships seem more appealing because they play to the more traditional gender roles that appeal to you. Women all over the world are still deal with oppression or suppression in one way or another. There is a conflict whether conscious or unconscious that comes with living in a society that says a person is equal but does not treat or view them as such. Many women are disconnected to who they truly are and the power they inheritantly have and find it easier to fall in line with societal expecations than take a different route even if they don't realize they're doing this. Humanity has made great progress in science and technology but we still have very old ways of thinking and behaving when it comes to the most basic elements of simply being. [Edited 5/13/05 9:41am] First, let me say that you stated your thoughts very well. I agree with your synopsis. So much of has changed with regard to the way things were (traditionally) as opposed to the way they are (presently). Both have pro's and con's but each individual union does need to express what they want and need from a relationship. Irregardless of gender, each relationship differs and not just country to country but individual to individual. Quite often the things that we think we lack through our partners are the very things we lack within ourselves.....and thus seek them through someone else.... when we don't find it...it is magnified because it's much easier to point the finger to someone else rather than own that blame. It really is a catch 22 in many cases...but none are all inclusive. If we are products of our environments it stands to reason that there will be differences....some of them are conceived from the relationships we viewed while being raised and that also comes into play in the way we rationalize within our relationships. It's interesting when all dynamics are examined.... | |
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Man, some of the female attitudes here send the women's movement back a hundred years. Most women only want equality when it suits them. | |
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Well I dont have a man but if I did I would bend over backwards for him (there's nothing in this world that I wouldn't do for him). When I give a man my heart he get's everything else that goes along with it (mind, body and soul). | |
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 I'm not getting this thread at all | |
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Rhondab said: I think some of you think that if you fall into a traditional gender role and that if you seek some sort of response from your partner that some how you're seeking validation or you need to be made to feel like a man or a woman.
I completely disagree with this. Of course, love ya self, seek validation from within BUT some women and men find pleasure in these traditional gender roles and not less of a man or a woman if they do so. Just because a man likes a woman to be nurturing towards him doesn't make him less of a "man". That's what HE needs emotionally. We all have needs and desires and we all have a particular way we want to be loved. I think the original post was about a cultural norm that has now changed for so many people and if that change was good or bad for relationships.  I absolutely agree. | |
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DexMSR said: CarrieMpls said: Oh, don't get me wrong. I love to entertain, whoever my guest may be. But I truly detest housework. lol. I think cooking and cleaning are necessary things to keep a household moving, sure, and if one partner enjoys it (a lot of people do) then that's great for one to take over the majority, whoever it may be. Housework is not my thing, so if I'm in a living situation with anybody, I expect that they do their fair share. And that's exactly what it is, fair. Doesn't mean I won't cook special meals for my partner, or clean up as a surprise cause I know they've had a long day, or what have you, but you had better not EXPECT me to take care of it all at all times. I think that's the difference. In my situation, I come from a family where the women do absolutely everything and the men sit on their asses and expect to be served hand and foot at all times. Wives are little more than servants. Not saying there isn't love there, cause there is, but I watched this growing up and just said, that's not gonna be me. I could never really see what the women were getting in return. Now, I'm not looking to reverse it! I dont expect to be waited on hand and foot at all times either. Just back down to the equal partnership deal. I would never expect it to be just "one-sided" ever....If you are doing the things that will make your man feel like a King, then that King "should" do what it is to make you feel like a Queen. You should make this more clear in your intial post - when I read your post I felt like grabbing you by the balls and swinging you violently around my head!!! I'll leave graffiti where you've never been kissed | |
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acire said: I think the important thing being discussed in this thread is that people in relationships (in the U.S. at least) forget to nuture and care for one another, male and female.
The U.S. culture is so caught up in "me me me" all the time that we don't realize how self-centered we can be. I think when people look back to the 50's as "the good ole days", they are wishing for a less egotisical, more communal and caring society. The fifties ideal is much different than the fifties reality, so a solution would not involve going backwards to the reality of that time, but just using the ideal to help pinpoint what is missing from our culture today. What it comes down to is showing those you love that you love them, being conscious of doing the small things that mean a lot, and caring for other people as much as you care for yourself. As independent as people like to act in the U.S., we couldn't survive without others and it's important for us to recognize and respect that, and to honor and cherish those we love. In the kitchen, under the car, who cares who is where as long as it's being done out of mutual love, sexiness and respect, yeah? Being loving does not = being weak, dependent or subservient. | |
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acire said: I think the important thing being discussed in this thread is that people in relationships (in the U.S. at least) forget to nuture and care for one another, male and female.
The U.S. culture is so caught up in "me me me" all the time that we don't realize how self-centered we can be. I think when people look back to the 50's as "the good ole days", they are wishing for a less egotisical, more communal and caring society. The fifties ideal is much different than the fifties reality, so a solution would not involve going backwards to the reality of that time, but just using the ideal to help pinpoint what is missing from our culture today. What it comes down to is showing those you love that you love them, being conscious of doing the small things that mean a lot, and caring for other people as much as you care for yourself. As independent as people like to act in the U.S., we couldn't survive without others and it's important for us to recognize and respect that, and to honor and cherish those we love. In the kitchen, under the car, who cares who is where as long as it's being done out of mutual love, sexiness and respect, yeah? Being loving does not = being weak, dependent or subservient. EXCELLENT!!!  The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. -- Mark Twain.
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meow85 said: bkw said: Why do you need a woman to serve and nuture you to feel like a man? You either are a "man" or you are not.
I believe women have every right to be a fuck-up and be just as selfish as men.There are no rules, only traditions. Your relationships are what you make of them. Caring for each other is a dual responsibility. I dont get all this lamenting over what women "should" be or what they used to be like in the good ol days. What he said. 
If you need someone else to make you feel like a man, you're not much of a man to begin with, are you? YOU TWO HAVE MISSED THE POINT..... The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. -- Mark Twain.
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DexMSR said: meow85 said: What he said.
If you need someone else to make you feel like a man, you're not much of a man to begin with, are you? YOU TWO HAVE MISSED THE POINT..... I think I have missed the point as well I don't think it's fair to generalize American women into a standard. I think standards should be set by the individuals in the relationship. If you want a more traditional type of relationship, that should be dicussed upfront. If you want both parties to be nurturing, that should also be discussed. Each couple should make up their own rules for their relationship. I am non-"traditional" when it comes to relationships and believe in making up my own traditions. It has nothing to do with my career [Edited 5/16/05 14:11pm] | |
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Janfriend said: DexMSR said: YOU TWO HAVE MISSED THE POINT..... I think I have missed the point as well I don't think it's fair to generalize American women into a standard. I think standards should be set by the individuals in the relationship. If you want a more traditional type of relationship, that should be dicussed upfront. If you want both parties to be nurturing, that should also be discussed. Each couple should make up their own rules for their relationship. I am non-"traditional" when it comes to relationships and believe in making up my own traditions. It has nothing to do with my career [Edited 5/16/05 14:11pm] Um...you may want to read more of this thread sweety....WHAP! The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. -- Mark Twain.
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DexMSR said: Janfriend said: I think I have missed the point as well I don't think it's fair to generalize American women into a standard. I think standards should be set by the individuals in the relationship. If you want a more traditional type of relationship, that should be dicussed upfront. If you want both parties to be nurturing, that should also be discussed. Each couple should make up their own rules for their relationship. I am non-"traditional" when it comes to relationships and believe in making up my own traditions. It has nothing to do with my career [Edited 5/16/05 14:11pm] Um...you may want to read more of this thread sweety....WHAP! I did and it angered me. From what I got, you said "What you touched on is exactly what I mean. Most women here don't do this anymore and I am not speaking for ALL women, some do understand how to nurture their man and make them feel like they are the man of the house. But "the man of the house" is a long lost, antiquated notion in Americana anymore. Call me old fashioned, but please understand that I am not attempting to objectify the woman's role, but to help get back to understanding how men are thinking." Then said "Once again...someone not reading or understanding what I am saying....never did I say women are to be subservient...ever in my words. I said they no longer nurture their man, and that can come in any way shape or form. When I was in my long term relationship, I would surprise her with a cd of her favorite artist...bought concert tickets to a show I had no intention on going, but bought it for her and her girl to go....little notes on the windshield for her to see on the way to work....but got none of that in return...she was a sensual and sexual abyss....there were no intimacies....but she did attempt to cook when it was something she was not used to...but I can cook" It seems, to me, that you want a more "traditional type" of relationship. Actually, its sounds like you want more romance, which has nothing to do with being American or having a career [Edited 5/16/05 15:32pm] | |
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Janfriend said: DexMSR said: Um...you may want to read more of this thread sweety....WHAP! I did and it angered me. From what I got, you said "What you touched on is exactly what I mean. Most women here don't do this anymore and I am not speaking for ALL women, some do understand how to nurture their man and make them feel like they are the man of the house. But "the man of the house" is a long lost, antiquated notion in Americana anymore. Call me old fashioned, but please understand that I am not attempting to objectify the woman's role, but to help get back to understanding how men are thinking." Then said "Once again...someone not reading or understanding what I am saying....never did I say women are to be subservient...ever in my words. I said they no longer nurture their man, and that can come in any way shape or form. When I was in my long term relationship, I would surprise her with a cd of her favorite artist...bought concert tickets to a show I had no intention on going, but bought it for her and her girl to go....little notes on the windshield for her to see on the way to work....but got none of that in return...she was a sensual and sexual abyss....there were no intimacies....but she did attempt to cook when it was something she was not used to...but I can cook" It seems, to me, that you want a more "traditional type" of relationship. Actually, its sounds like you want more romance, which has nothing to do with being American or having a career [Edited 5/16/05 15:32pm] Well...without having to go completely back inside this thread...you need to read Rhonda's responses...and a few more to gain more insight. I am only speaking upon how women in other countries have not abandoned the nurturers role women "do" play in the lives of their husbands and children. I have noticed here that most women just do not cater to the needs of their man/husbands. I am not going to say that men should not reciprocate as well, because they should. So read more of these posts and return..... whap! The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. -- Mark Twain.
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Dex, it seems like anyone who doesn't agree with you or attempts to explain how s/he sees things differently just gets a dismissive, "oh, you didn't read the thread well enough" or "you don't understand" or "you're wrong" out of you. It seems like you don't really want a discussion, that you're not open to the realities or experiences that Orgers are sharing here about their current relationships. You just seem to want people to agree and give you props.  | |
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AnotherLoverToo said: Dex, it seems like anyone who doesn't agree with you or attempts to explain how s/he sees things differently just gets a dismissive, "oh, you didn't read the thread well enough" or "you don't understand" or "you're wrong" out of you. It seems like you don't really want a discussion, that you're not open to the realities or experiences that Orgers are sharing here about their current relationships. You just seem to want people to agree and give you props.
Well...I am not going to say I am some moderator of the in's and out's of correct responses or right and wrong answers, but I will tell you that points are well conceived and received. If it is not congruent with my train of thought, what am I supposed to do? I have given props via on more than a few occasions whether it is my thinking or not.
This thread has come full circle on more than ONE occasion so if some cannot grasp its meaning or objective....I cannot apologize for there mental capacities... Nor will I. The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. -- Mark Twain.
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DexMSR said: Janfriend said: I did and it angered me. From what I got, you said "What you touched on is exactly what I mean. Most women here don't do this anymore and I am not speaking for ALL women, some do understand how to nurture their man and make them feel like they are the man of the house. But "the man of the house" is a long lost, antiquated notion in Americana anymore. Call me old fashioned, but please understand that I am not attempting to objectify the woman's role, but to help get back to understanding how men are thinking." Then said "Once again...someone not reading or understanding what I am saying....never did I say women are to be subservient...ever in my words. I said they no longer nurture their man, and that can come in any way shape or form. When I was in my long term relationship, I would surprise her with a cd of her favorite artist...bought concert tickets to a show I had no intention on going, but bought it for her and her girl to go....little notes on the windshield for her to see on the way to work....but got none of that in return...she was a sensual and sexual abyss....there were no intimacies....but she did attempt to cook when it was something she was not used to...but I can cook" It seems, to me, that you want a more "traditional type" of relationship. Actually, its sounds like you want more romance, which has nothing to do with being American or having a career [Edited 5/16/05 15:32pm] Well...without having to go completely back inside this thread...you need to read Rhonda's responses...and a few more to gain more insight. I am only speaking upon how women in other countries have not abandoned the nurturers role women "do" play in the lives of their husbands and children. I have noticed here that most women just do not cater to the needs of their man/husbands. I am not going to say that men should not reciprocate as well, because they should. So read more of these posts and return..... whap! I did read the whole thing and I completely disagree. "Nurturers." Why do women have to be the nurturers? Women are no more nurturers than men. You said "cater to the needs" what exactly are those need that you feel are not being catered to? | |
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Janfriend said: DexMSR said: Well...without having to go completely back inside this thread...you need to read Rhonda's responses...and a few more to gain more insight. I am only speaking upon how women in other countries have not abandoned the nurturers role women "do" play in the lives of their husbands and children. I have noticed here that most women just do not cater to the needs of their man/husbands. I am not going to say that men should not reciprocate as well, because they should. So read more of these posts and return..... whap! I did read the whole thing and I completely disagree. "Nurturers." Why do women have to be the nurturers? Women are no more nurturers than men. You said "cater to the needs" what exactly are those need that you feel are not being catered to? 
Whap! The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. -- Mark Twain.
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Rhondab said: acire said: I think the important thing being discussed in this thread is that people in relationships (in the U.S. at least) forget to nuture and care for one another, male and female.
The U.S. culture is so caught up in "me me me" all the time that we don't realize how self-centered we can be. I think when people look back to the 50's as "the good ole days", they are wishing for a less egotisical, more communal and caring society. The fifties ideal is much different than the fifties reality, so a solution would not involve going backwards to the reality of that time, but just using the ideal to help pinpoint what is missing from our culture today. What it comes down to is showing those you love that you love them, being conscious of doing the small things that mean a lot, and caring for other people as much as you care for yourself. As independent as people like to act in the U.S., we couldn't survive without others and it's important for us to recognize and respect that, and to honor and cherish those we love. In the kitchen, under the car, who cares who is where as long as it's being done out of mutual love, sexiness and respect, yeah? Being loving does not = being weak, dependent or subservient. The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. -- Mark Twain.
BOB JOHNSON IS PART OF THE PROBLEM!! | |
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acire said: I think the important thing being discussed in this thread is that people in relationships (in the U.S. at least) forget to nuture and care for one another, male and female.
The U.S. culture is so caught up in "me me me" all the time that we don't realize how self-centered we can be. I think when people look back to the 50's as "the good ole days", they are wishing for a less egotisical, more communal and caring society. The fifties ideal is much different than the fifties reality, so a solution would not involve going backwards to the reality of that time, but just using the ideal to help pinpoint what is missing from our culture today. What it comes down to is showing those you love that you love them, being conscious of doing the small things that mean a lot, and caring for other people as much as you care for yourself. As independent as people like to act in the U.S., we couldn't survive without others and it's important for us to recognize and respect that, and to honor and cherish those we love. In the kitchen, under the car, who cares who is where as long as it's being done out of mutual love, sexiness and respect, yeah? Being loving does not = being weak, dependent or subservient. The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. -- Mark Twain.
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Dex - this won't make me very popular, but I think you may be identifying a cultural difference, within the subset of American women.
In your experience, do Black women treat their men different than other races of women? | |
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Fleshofmyflesh said: Dex - this won't make me very popular, but I think you may be identifying a cultural difference, within the subset of American women.
In your experience, do Black women treat their men different than other races of women? Yes, it does have alot to do with culture and its differences. I have been all over the world and only here are our women really not of the inherent nurturing kind like women in other countries are. There are a plethora of factors involved in this change: Career advances for women, The Women's Movement, Relationship Dynamics have evolved out of what we would call more traditional roles, etc. I think I will choose to not have an American woman in my midst when it is all said and done because they just are not (NOT ALL) fine tuned anymore as to what it means to nurture their man. This thread is great and has opened my eyes to alot, but I am pretty much done. I had an experience with a most beautiful young lady last summer where I had gone to play basketball with my friends, came home and she went on and gave me a foot massage because she knew I needed it, and I in return gave her all the love and attention that was warranted that night, and we never had to turn on the television or do anything that strayed from the both of us. We layed in each others arms and just chilled with each other until it was time to sleep. You see, this is how I love to exist. When my lady is that nurturing to me, I can't help but be there for her. We have unbelieiveable chemistry in that regard. She is not American, and she has got it all right. I would never expect a woman to bow down or be my servant, but I do want the woman I am with to be that nurturer and care-giver men want or need. I will do what I need to do as a "man" to adhere to the role of being that strong pillar of strength and make her feel safe and secure at all times along with whatever else it is I need to do for my woman and the household we are building or have built. I know women love to feel safe, secure, and loved... and men love to feel cared for, loved, and nurtured above and beyond what we normally do for ourselves. I'm sorry if I got off topic. But I don't see a difference in how black women treat their man in accordance to any other race, this is only a male/female thing as far as I am concerned.  The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. -- Mark Twain.
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Well, Dex, I think alot of women are materialistic, superficial, and selfish.
And probably most of them live in the USA. I also know alot of women who can't cook or won't cook - which just blows me away. I love to take care of my man, because he takes care of me. In every way. SO....what happened with the foot rubbing girl? | |
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Fleshofmyflesh said: Well, Dex, I think alot of women are materialistic, superficial, and selfish.
And probably most of them live in the USA. I also know alot of women who can't cook or won't cook - which just blows me away. I love to take care of my man, because he takes care of me. In every way. SO....what happened with the foot rubbing girl? I am happy to hear that you know how to nurture and be that caregiver we seek! Much kudos to you and your relationship! She doesn't live in the US unfortunately....  The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. -- Mark Twain.
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DexMSR said: Fleshofmyflesh said: Well, Dex, I think alot of women are materialistic, superficial, and selfish.
And probably most of them live in the USA. I also know alot of women who can't cook or won't cook - which just blows me away. I love to take care of my man, because he takes care of me. In every way. SO....what happened with the foot rubbing girl? I am happy to hear that you know how to nurture and be that caregiver we seek! Much kudos to you and your relationship! She doesn't live in the US unfortunately.... So you import? 
Just a guess - was she Asian? | |
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Fleshofmyflesh said: DexMSR said: I am happy to hear that you know how to nurture and be that caregiver we seek! Much kudos to you and your relationship! She doesn't live in the US unfortunately.... So you import?
Just a guess - was she Asian? I don't agree with the Asian role where "all" women are subservient..no way...I just love a woman that takes care of her man, that's all. The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. -- Mark Twain.
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Fleshofmyflesh said: Well, Dex, I think alot of women are materialistic, superficial, and selfish.
And probably most of them live in the USA. I also know alot of women who can't cook or won't cook - which just blows me away. I love to take care of my man, because he takes care of me. In every way. Why should a woman cook? The man can do it if he wants a home cooked meal that damn bad I'm sorry, but this thread is coming off so misogynistic. One minute, someone says men and women shoudl take care of each other, the next minutes someone is saying they don't want an Amercan woman because they don't take care of their men. If a man needs to be taken care of that badly, he needs to go back and live with his momma! I believe in nurturing in relationships and I believe it should be equal, period. | |
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Janfriend said: Fleshofmyflesh said: Well, Dex, I think alot of women are materialistic, superficial, and selfish.
And probably most of them live in the USA. I also know alot of women who can't cook or won't cook - which just blows me away. I love to take care of my man, because he takes care of me. In every way. Why should a woman cook? The man can do it if he wants a home cooked meal that damn bad I'm sorry, but this thread is coming off so misogynistic. One minute, someone says men and women shoudl take care of each other, the next minutes someone is saying they don't want an Amercan woman because they don't take care of their men. If a man needs to be taken care of that badly, he needs to go back and live with his momma! I believe in nurturing in relationships and I believe it should be equal, period. Missing the boat as usual....and most likely ALONE! WHEW!! The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. -- Mark Twain.
BOB JOHNSON IS PART OF THE PROBLEM!! | |
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DexMSR said: Janfriend said: Why should a woman cook? The man can do it if he wants a home cooked meal that damn bad I'm sorry, but this thread is coming off so misogynistic. One minute, someone says men and women shoudl take care of each other, the next minutes someone is saying they don't want an Amercan woman because they don't take care of their men. If a man needs to be taken care of that badly, he needs to go back and live with his momma! I believe in nurturing in relationships and I believe it should be equal, period. Missing the boat as usual....and most likely ALONE! WHEW!! What does that mean? Well, you haven't been willing to explain it in detail, so who's fault is it that I'm missing the boat? What didn't you undertsand about both parties being nurturing in their relationship? You sound selfish and as if you want to go back to a time that doesn't exist and really shouldn't | |
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