DexMSR said:

Nah, I read the thread when you first posted it and pretty much agreed with you.



I'll blast you another day.

CarrieMpls said:

Well...sorry you are not allowing yourself to see through those feminist sunglasses...but it seems more people here do get it...so...I must relent and wish you all the best sista. Because never once did I say a woman must do these things. I stated it must work both ways..and that is all I can say...

CarrieMpls said:

I understand what you're saying but I think the other side of this is that men and women are different. And yes, we CHOOSE to do these things for our men but how many women recognize the needs of their men. I think Dex is talking about what makes a man happy in a relationship and why doesn't todays woman understand that. Of course all of this is generalization BUT I do think men still want somewhat of a traditional household.



And even in wealthy households, the woman still makes sure the household is in order. The role is self is still there.
I think feminism, initially misses the boat on some issues involving relationships and helping women who want the traditional roles and yet want to still have the feeling of empowerment and equality within and outside of her partner.

Hmmm....

I get what Dex is saying. Nothing wrong with it.
It's hard to explain but I will try.

I would never do anything to make my guy feel like less of a man.
It's all about making someone feel good.
I've witnessed some women who get selfish in relationships and expect for the man to give give & give

My man knows he is the man of the house. That doesn't mean he's over me. It's a respect thing...
If he's had a long horrible day. His dinner is ready and I'll turn on the shower for him and hop in there if he asks.
He does the same for me? Imagine if he had a bad day and he comes home and I ask him to make my dinner and rub my feet.
We both make an effort and give

I leave him little gifts in his car...just to let him know I'm here for him & he's on my mind
He sends me flowers and brings me junk food...to let me know he's here for me
Little things...

Just because I do good things and make him feel special doesnt make me his "bitch"
He makes me feel good so I give in return. It wouldn't be fair if he did all the work.
I could go on all day,because there's much more to it

...and if anyone mentions banana nut bread
[Edited 5/12/05 11:20am]

ThreadCula said:

Thank you sista!

Will U marry me?

Rhondab said:

I ain't scared of you!!

:box:

DexMSR said:

I know exactly what you're scared of .....

Rhondab said:

brownsugar said:

Oh Good Lawd!

And what the fuck you laughing at?

Whap whap whap....

Teacher said:

retina said:

Thank you ALL for a wonderful Thread



Someone give Carrie a copy of the Cliffs Notes.....

DexMSR said:

I kinda get ya now. Just don't always agree.

CarrieMpls said:

Whap!!!

Rhondab said:

I know that I was raised "not to depend on no man" by a mother who worked and still did the traditional things including serving my daddy his meals. When I was growing up I saw one thing and heard another, I saw women doing both, working and serving- for lack of a better term- but all the while they were saying to the young women coming up behind them that you don't have to do this. When I finally got married I realized that I WANTED to do this, I don't depend on him because I need to, I depend on him because I want to and because he lets me know that I can depend on him. I realize now that it is more of a mind set, I realize that had I gone into the relationship dependant and vulernable, my man, this man, would not have come to me and I may have been open to an abusive situation, but by remaining strong and sure, I was not so concerned with "what have you done for me lately" because I knowthis man loves me and I love him and we both recognize and feel it and know it. So giving isn't difficult.

Some women equate all giving with giving too much of themselves and the men that they have been around may have confimed this by mistreating and using them.

Serving your man, cleaning, cooking, or working outside the home, fixing the car, paying the bills while he stays home it's all the same as long as it is mutually understood and the needs that need to be met are, for both people.

AnotherLoverToo said:

butterfli25 said:

This is an awesome post.

Why do you need a woman to serve and nuture you to feel like a man? You either are a "man" or you are not.

I believe women have every right to be a fuck-up and be just as selfish as men.There are no rules, only traditions.

Your relationships are what you make of them. Caring for each other is a dual responsibility.

I dont get all this lamenting over what women "should" be or what they used to be like in the good ol days.

I think we tend to focus more on our lives if we do not feel that we get the same kind of support and feedback you speak of. It takes 2 people to make a relationship work and if one isn't willing to help the other then there is a default in the "system".

DexMSR said:

To hell with that. I'm female, and quite content to remain so, may I add. But if that's how a "woman" is supposed to be behave, count me out.

I also want nothing to do with males who behave like this version of a "man". I'd never expect a man to provide for me, nor should he expect me to play wifey for him.

Which brings me to another point -what's your precription for same-sex couples? Or, while we're at it, ployamourous unions? People are too diverse for such a strict man/woman dynamic to actually work for everyone, even for all straight couples.

CarrieMpls said:

And there it is.

Do what you want -be teacher, a CEO, or a housewife, but do it because that's what works for you, not because it's what someone else (the man) expects from you.

bkw said:

What he said.

If you need someone else to make you feel like a man, you're not much of a man to begin with, are you?

meow85 said:

I agree with the gist of what bkw said, but I don't agree with what you've said in response...

a woman can CERTAINLY make a man, who is by default a man, feel even MORE truly masculine. and vice versa for a woman of course. the two sexes are the ying and yang of the energy of the universe; how can we NOT nurture each other. we are MEANT to improve each others' own natural human nature, man and woman.

DexMSR said:

But wait...this is the same guy talking about not being commited to a relationship.....that makes me wonder....why do you care, boo?

Here's what I have to add to the conversation. My mother was a stay at home mom. So I learned a lot about taking care of home and the traditional role. But...my mother never stressed for marriage or children to her girls. Because she was unhappy. She told me not to get married, and just have a kid or something. So I basically go into life fighting for my goals, but I still become Holly Housewife in relationships. It's like a switch. i know a lot of women who came from a childhood like mine and act the same way. You go after yours all day,...but when you get home, the housewife switch comes on.

But....we are all taught to be a ball busting biatch for men to continue to want us. So what do you say about that? I really dont have it in me to be that way. But that's what we hear and I can't help but wonder if I did that what would my relationships be like?

DigitalDooDoo said:

I wouldn't agree at all. I don't think anyone's MEANT to make anyone feel more or less of the gender they are.
What about gay people? Are each partner to make each other "more of a man" or woman also?
Why are we so tied to gender roles?

DexMSR said:

Well....

Do you think it would be fair to say that some of the perceptions with regard to women caring for their men in more traditional manners are perceived as lax due to to the growing of number of households where women are the sole and/or primary bread winners of the household?

Do you think that inferiority complexes and/or ego's may also generate some of this perception?

Do you think that men have encouraged this by enouraging women to go outside of the home to work? For as many men as there are that say that a feminist movement is behind the change of mindset...there are just as many men that say ..... if my woman wants to suport the household...I'll hold it down at home. And in those instances how do you view the nurturing distribution?

Don't get me wrong... I'm probably as old fashioned when it comes to home as a woman can get. . . .but by the same token I still see relationships as a two way street and a commitment. In a world where men are quick to cite rational for not marrying in a committed relationship it stills seems to be the perception that the lack of traditional values fall on the shoulders of the women. Isn't that a contradiction of sorts? Where do you see as starting point for the breakdown of traditional roles in a familial setting?

As for the women being alone.....sometimes alone allows you the opportunity to see what you value and what you expect a man to bring to the relationship as well. Alone isn't always a bad thing... there are many people in relationships today that feel more alone than those that physically are.

Such an interesting thread in so many ways . . . .

I contend that it's the lack of foundation building that allows relationships to get to the point of break-down .... communication..... truly is key. Because after the love and after the hellacious sex..... after the cuddling ...there has to be a means of communicating with regard to values, and ethics and morals and roles within the relationship.....

the bottom line for me is this... regardless of who cooks the meal on any particular day I believe its more important that you dine together.....not in passing as one enters and upon the others exodus.....

And no matter who wakes the other in the midst of sleep to say i need you and i want you.... the receptiveness of the other to respond to his/her partners needs supercedes the onset of foreplay and the focus on which gender initated it....

Mutual respect and communication ....and the man will know that he is respected and loved and important and so will his woman .....and knowing that without having to have those words uttered in my opinion is the starting point ..... its all about being clear on what you want in your union....but in all fairness.... unions are unique and not all inclusive on any level just as some men look to be nurtured ... many others love to generate it.....

my again

KatSkrizzle said:

So have I. I even tried it

I still continue to see this in my friends relationships. They are the types that 'keep it in check' so to speak and their men don't have a problem with it. Hey if u like it I love it. They are still married. Yes I believe we are encouraged to be, 'no nonesense biatches' with men out of fear of getting hurt or misused. What I have learned though is I am a different kind of woman that handles things in a differnt way. I don't have to use authourity with my man because my influence works best for me. I am a mild person, what can I say. That doesn't mean I am a punk. I get my respect believe me. I no longer let others influence me on the dynamics of my relationship because I know what works for me and my man.

toffee said:

*takes ur to the bank!*

Great response. My baby is very much a nurturer. Almost more than me! He loves to give and because of the "flipped script", when we were dating I had the strange feeling of inadequacy. We have found our balance over the years. Again, also have learned to define our own dynamic.

This is the hottest thread on here at the moment. I should have commented before but spent too much time lurking and working.

I don’t think any gender should need someone to make them feel more of who they already are. However, I do think there are energies that may compliment who we are and bring forth that which is already there. Who decides what a woman should do to keep her man? Every union is different and what one man may need may be very different for another. I don’t know if anyone should do anything to keep someone. You do certain things to nurture and share with your partner and the relationship but people should stay because they want to and that's based on a lot of things, not simply because they were kept well.

This reminds me of something I read by author Gary Zukav. There is the New Male and the New Female and both oppose the concepts of the Old Male and Old Female. Their needs and outlooks are very different than the old stereotypical or traditonal gender roles.

A New Male seeks a New Female. He’s not looking for a woman to do traditional roles like cook and clean or even stroke his ego. A New Female is not looking for a man to protect or provide for her or flash his prowess around.

Both choose a partner to accompany them through their life and/or spiritual growth. They work with the needs of their particular partner, not of the partner’s gender thus this works for all unions not just male/female.

More often than not, people say they want the attributes that fit a New Male or Female but deep down they want the Old one and while there’s nothing wrong with that if they’re not clear on what they really want they’ll have a hard time attracting the person that works in harmony with them.

As for American women being different, the U.S. is very different in terms of their outlook on quality of life, spiritual foundation or lack thereof, priorities and the liberation they so recently obtained than some other countries particularly non-Western.

Maybe how non-American women treat their men and their relationships seem more appealing because they play to the more traditional gender roles that appeal to you.

Women all over the world are still deal with oppression or suppression in one way or another. There is a conflict whether conscious or unconscious that comes with living in a society that says a person is equal but does not treat or view them as such. Many women are disconnected to who they truly are and the power they inheritantly have and find it easier to fall in line with societal expecations than take a different route even if they don't realize they're doing this.

Humanity has made great progress in science and technology but we still have very old ways of thinking and behaving when it comes to the most basic elements of simply being.
[Edited 5/13/05 9:41am]

I think some of you think that if you fall into a traditional gender role and that if you seek some sort of response from your partner that some how you're seeking validation or you need to be made to feel like a man or a woman.

I completely disagree with this. Of course, love ya self, seek validation from within BUT some women and men find pleasure in these traditional gender roles and not less of a man or a woman if they do so. Just because a man likes a woman to be nurturing towards him doesn't make him less of a "man". That's what HE needs emotionally. We all have needs and desires and we all have a particular way we want to be loved.

I think the original post was about a cultural norm that has now changed for so many people and if that change was good or bad for relationships.