DexMSR said:

Oh, don't get me wrong. I love to entertain, whoever my guest may be. But I truly detest housework. lol. I think cooking and cleaning are necessary things to keep a household moving, sure, and if one partner enjoys it (a lot of people do) then that's great for one to take over the majority, whoever it may be. Housework is not my thing, so if I'm in a living situation with anybody, I expect that they do their fair share. And that's exactly what it is, fair. Doesn't mean I won't cook special meals for my partner, or clean up as a surprise cause I know they've had a long day, or what have you, but you had better not EXPECT me to take care of it all at all times. I think that's the difference.

In my situation, I come from a family where the women do absolutely everything and the men sit on their asses and expect to be served hand and foot at all times. Wives are little more than servants. Not saying there isn't love there, cause there is, but I watched this growing up and just said, that's not gonna be me. I could never really see what the women were getting in return. Now, I'm not looking to reverse it! I dont expect to be waited on hand and foot at all times either. Just back down to the equal partnership deal.

AnotherLoverToo said:

Hi AnotherLoverToo!

Sorry to poke my nose into your discussion here but I can see that you're quietly fuming at Dex's comments and - in my opinion - rightly so. It really sounds like he wants a return to the twisted attitudes and values of the fifties. I don't sympathize with this since I am a strong believer in equality and don't approve of any societal function, however subtle it might be, that places one gender below the other. The whole "man of the house" thing feels terribly outdated and was never right in the first place.

However, the feminist movement sometimes reacts so strongly against some of these flaws in society that they often try to swing the pendulum too far to the other side, at least in some countries. I am from a country that is perhaps feminism's most active and influential stronghold in the world. This is a country in which:

...a "man tax" is being seriously considered. It's a tax that would be paid by all men because rape and spousal abuse is almost always committed by men. Penalizing whole groups in, say, the military for the errors of one or a few individuals is wrong. Most people agree with that. So to punish half of a country's population for the misdeeds of a few idiots is just crazy.

...a new feminist party has emerged that raked in over ten per cent of the voter sympathies before they had even established a political agenda.

...the feminist movement has publicly stated on many occasions that they want to "abolish the families" since they can be used as "instruments of oppression".

...many jobs are offered to "women only" compared to no jobs whatsoever being offered to "men only". I don't know how many times I've been defeated by a far less merited woman when applying for a job just because of the gender issue (they have openly told me that).

...articles about women's superiority over men are often publicized in papers and magazines largely unopposed while articles with an opposite opinion are completely unthinkable. Not even with a humoristic twist would they be accepted by any publisher.

...women wearing a dress or skirt or clearly visible makeup is looked down upon by other women. Same thing goes for emotional responses in a worklife situation and division of work within the family.

The above are factors that are integrated in society and not just the attitudes of a small radical group. I'm not saying that all countries are like this, but many of these factors can be seen to varying degree pretty much everywhere. The fact that extremely conservative men, which Dex seems to be, react against them is unsurprising. But when men that speak warmly of equality and that have never had a thought about dominating their female companion react against feminism, then you know that it's been taken too far.

Maybe this needs to happen. Maybe the pendulum has to swing over to the other, equally wrong side before it can find rest somewhere in between. But I personally think it's terribly unfortunate if the men of today have to be punished for the misdeeds of the men of yesterday. It is as wrong as punishing the Germans that are alive today for what a few of the Germans of the forties did during the second world war.

It can be discussed to no end what it means to "be a woman". I'm satisfied if equal opportunity really means equal opportunity (both ways) and women don't feel like they are being submissive when they wear a dress.

In all of my travels I have come to the conclusion that American women just don't understand that while pursuing their careers and goals they must not abandon their role in actually "being" a woman to their men. I am all for equality from a societal standpoint; I'd never deny them what they should all have freely and unconditionally.

what part of this are we not understanding people?

retina said:

Hi, retina:

Actually, you read me/my post entirely incorrectly. I don't "quietly fume"; I'm very verbal and direct in my thoughts. However, before I gather these thoughts and conduct a dialogue, I try to make sure I'm understanding what the other person truly means, rather than assume or jump to conclusions.

Dex, IMO, was being very vague. He wasn't saying what it was that he wanted a woman to do for him, or what he meant by a woman supporting and keeping her man. I was just asking him to explain before I continued, but then I had to go back to work and didn't get a chance to go on and reply to his examples.

Regarding the other stuff in your post: what country do you live in (I'm guessing a Scandanavian country)? It sounds like a parallel universe, lol. You state that this is not just a fringe, extremist group of women, that these thoughts are becoming mainstream in your country, and obviously you would know better than I would about your own country, but a mere 10% party support and "considering" such extremist laws as the "man tax" sound very knee-jerk and probably get a lot more attention/press/air time due to the extremity. What are the true chances of these things actually happening? And the job loss issue sounds a lot like the controversy over affirmative action in the States; everyone claims to have lost out on a job or a college space due to reverse discrimination, to a supposedly far less worthy competitor. But how do you really know that the person was less qualified, rather than just a very convenient excuse an employer could give you for not hiring you, in order to escape personal responsibility? Not to mention, there are tons of women who've been cut out of jobs due to the assumption they'll leave to have kids, or that they couldn't do the job. Shall we keep track of who's been fucked over the worst? Radical feminism will never work, imo, just as a completely patriarchal system will not, and I don't think many women really approve of such measures as you list. Citing these examples is interesting, but give me anti-man stats and laws that have been passed and then we'll talk.

AnotherLoverToo said:

That's it. Do me here. Right now. On the floor.

I stand behind my man, I listen to him when he needs to talk, I do have dinner on the table whenever I can, I am bearing and raising our kids at home while he is out working. When he asks my opinion, if I say it's OK, for him it really is OK - because he trusts my opinion even above his own sometimes. I can bring in extra money by working from home when we need it, so I don't feel I am missing the whole career thing. He gives me a massage and buys me flowers, and I do the same for him. We are striking a pretty good balance. He feels like a man, and I feel like a woman. Mind you, he does pull his weight around the house too and certainly works at our marriage as much as I do and for this I can respect him 100%.

And in these countries...these women were glad to do the tasks for the entire household. They cooked, cleaned, and treated us like every man wishes he could be treated. They didn't seem unhappy, I didn't see any women platforming to burn bras and champion change there. They were all more than happy to do what they did. I had a date with one woman and she brought her family over to meet me, and her "Aunt" went into the kitchen immediately and cleaned it up and made drinks for everyone in my condo! They felt comfortable doing it for "some" reason right?

charlottegelin said:

Excellent!

What I am referring to is how in all the places I've been, women knew how to make their man feel loved and appreciated and knew how to keep that going with cooking, taking care of the things he cannot, serving him, taking care of his needs..and if THIS is taken care of and appreciated by your man, then it should be neverending right?

It is over here in SOME cases that women just are simply robots out for themselves and will never see themselves as serving a man in this capacity. Why??

DexMSR said:

but I'm not american, btw

DexMSR said:

Dex I hear ya, but career women generally suck, no matter where they're from. Actually career men too because they let work go before their family. They think their sole responsibility is to put food on the table. Career women forget about their part as a spouse and mother.

I do agree that some countries have a higher rate of career oriented women, so that somewhat justifies your generalizations. In their attempt to emancipate themselves I feel some women have taken it too far and actually caused the opposite to happen for women who are happy in a role as a housewife and mother. In the countries you're talking about housewives are more appreciated.

It's like a vicious circle. Women want to desperately persue a career because the role as a housewife stay at home mother isn't appreciated anymore, but that's also partially due to the rise of career women who make housewives look lazy and dumb. (not saying that's my opinion)

Actually, you read me/my post entirely incorrectly. I don't "quietly fume"; I'm very verbal and direct in my thoughts. However, before I gather these thoughts and conduct a dialogue, I try to make sure I'm understanding what the other person truly means, rather than assume or jump to conclusions.

Dex, IMO, was being very vague. He wasn't saying what it was that he wanted a woman to do for him, or what he meant by a woman supporting and keeping her man. I was just asking him to explain before I continued, but then I had to go back to work and didn't get a chance to go on and reply to his examples.

Regarding the other stuff in your post: what country do you live in (I'm guessing a Scandanavian country)?

It sounds like a parallel universe, lol. You state that this is not just a fringe, extremist group of women, that these thoughts are becoming mainstream in your country, and obviously you would know better than I would about your own country

but a mere 10% party support and "considering" such extremist laws as the "man tax" sound very knee-jerk and probably get a lot more attention/press/air time due to the extremity.

And the job loss issue sounds a lot like the controversy over affirmative action in the States; everyone claims to have lost out on a job or a college space due to reverse discrimination, to a supposedly far less worthy competitor. But how do you really know that the person was less qualified, rather than just a very convenient excuse an employer could give you for not hiring you, in order to escape personal responsibility?

Not to mention, there are tons of women who've been cut out of jobs due to the assumption they'll leave to have kids, or that they couldn't do the job. Shall we keep track of who's been fucked over the worst?

Radical feminism will never work, imo, just as a completely patriarchal system will not, and I don't think many women really approve of such measures as you list. Citing these examples is interesting, but give me anti-man stats and laws that have been passed and then we'll talk.

AnotherLoverToo said:

Okay, fine. But your questions sounded about as neutral as when an interrogator asks a suspect: "So, did you enjoy killing all those children?"

I really find it interesting that you interpreted my words that way. I went back to re-read, and I still don't see it. I quoted Dex and asked him to be more specific. I also cited my personal experiences of women doing a lot of "work" in relationships. Please tell me how exactly I expressed myself as "quietly fuming", I'm curious.



Honestly? Yes, I think we should. Men and women should be fucked over equally.

So do I; I just don't think that keeping track and comparing injustices is likely to lead to much good

Radical feminism will never work, imo, just as a completely patriarchal system will not, and I don't think many women really approve of such measures as you list. Citing these examples is interesting, but give me anti-man stats and laws that have been passed and then we'll talk.

Passing those laws would be lunacy. Suggesting them is bad enough and definitely warrants a talk. I think we mostly agree though; radical feminism and patriarchy are just as bad. But the spotlight has definitely been on the patriarchy. I just wanted to remind people that there is countermovement that is just as crazy and should be taken just as seriously.

Hej retina, I'm a swede (I don't live there either), but man that sounds freaky

charlottegelin said:

Hej!

Yep, it sure is freaky. As you know, Swedes can be quite arrogant in the sense that we always see ourselves as taking the moral high ground and are proud of that. That's why, when something is considered moral and PC, it gets completely absorbed by the Swedish society without people asking that many questions.

Anyway, is Charlotte Gelin your real name? If so, you're the bravest person here on the org. What if Althom decides to stalk you?

Do you speak Swedish or have you been gone for too long?

I really find it interesting that you interpreted my words that way. I went back to re-read, and I still don't see it. I quoted Dex and asked him to be more specific. I also cited my personal experiences of women doing a lot of "work" in relationships. Please tell me how exactly I expressed myself as "quietly fuming", I'm curious.

I'd be interested to hear what Teacher, who also lives in Sweden and is female, has to say about your take on the state of gender affairs.

AnotherLoverToo said:

Maybe I was just reading between the lines since I've read your opinions about many different things before. I respect your intellect and sympathized with what I felt you were saying indirectly.



Oh, I'm sure she's going to strongly disagree. It's always easier to see the things in society that work against you and harder to see those that work for you.

retina said:

Don't worry, I know Althom's real name too!
I read in the newspaper an article about Sweden's "wussy" workforce. Most swedes apparently wouldn't think twice about taking a day off work just because they were in a bad mood! I'm not sure what to think of my motherland any more

retina said:

And out of curiousity, what was your username before retina, as you say you've read my opinions?

I wouldn't necessarily assume Teacher would strongly disagree with your perception just because she's female. She's not one for popular opinion, imo. I am curious because she's actually THERE to get a sense and feel of the current "vibe", whereas it sounds like you and charlotte are ex-patriates.

And out of curiousity, what was your username before retina, as you say you've read my opinions?

I wouldn't necessarily assume Teacher would strongly disagree with your perception just because she's female. She's not one for popular opinion, imo. I am curious because she's actually THERE to get a sense and feel of the current "vibe", whereas it sounds like you and charlotte are ex-patriates.

AnotherLoverToo said:

Now I would LOVE to hear what she thinks I haven't been back in 10 years now, and I always thought my grandma was just whingeing.

All in all, I think people should be kind, respectful and loving as much as possible in a relationship, regardless of gender or gender "roles". Then it works. Whatever arrangements a couple is great, as long as it's mutually beneficial. The feminist movement arose from lack of opportunity and choice and legal protection, not because we were so disliked our husbands and children.

But I also want to say that relying on your partner for total validation as a man or woman isn't a wise idea, either, imo. There are gonna be days when it's gonna be tough to "make" your man or woman feel good, and I"m not gonna be anybody's mama but my children's. My love for my man is unconditional and I'll do what it takes, but you all need to be grown men, too, and get off my tits!

and I'll do what it takes, but you all need to be grown men, too, and get off my tits!

AnotherLoverToo said:

Let's not go throwing the baby out with the bathwater now!!

2teh9s said:

Is this about the breastfeeding in public thread?

2teh9s said:

Is this about the breastfeeding in public thread?