jerseykrs said:

But you've said it all and I agree and have nothing to add.

Sinister said:

If you're talking about when she originally transformed into Phoenix, it was by editorial decree. Claremont and Cockrum loved having a female hero who was cosmic - the X-Men's equivalent of Thor. But then editorial stepped in and said that they couldn't have a hero that was cosmic in the X-Men. So they had to power her down to STorm's level and then come up with an explanationm as to why she could no longer access Phoenix-level powers. And the explanation was that she wasn't mature enough to handle the Phoenix power, so her subconscious denied her access, sort of like a safety block closing down, to protect her sanity.

When John Byrne replaced Cockrum, Byrne didn't share Claremont and Cockrum's interest in Phoenix. In fact, he didn't like her at all. He felt she made the rest of the team redundant. So, although she became an X-Man in #110, she was immediately moved to the sidelines and the plot was hatched to make her develop into a villain.

But when push came to shove, Claremont and Byrne couldn't find it within themselves to make her be truly evil, which is why X-Men #137 initially ended with her having the Phoenix exorcised from her. They said she went mad - then she got better.

That's when Jim Shooter stepped in, because this didn't fit with what he had approved - a storyline about a hero that got corrupted by power. And for destroying a star system, he demanded she be punished - for instance that she be jailed by the Shi'ar on an asteroid to suffer torture for eternity. (Which happened to Loki in Norse Mythology and later to Doomsday in Superman.)

But Claremont and Byrne couldn't make themselves do that to Jean Grey, so they figured thee'd rather just kill her off. Which they did. And they liked the solution, because now it had become a story about the triumph of the human spirit.

But that was then...

JediMaster said:

Why? According to Preview's Top 100 most ordered comics, Excalibur is selling quite well, so he must be doing somethin right.
[Edited 6/10/05 13:45pm]

sextonseven said:

Did you have to bring that up? I had happily repressed it.

And the whole Nightcrawler's dad storyline. The horror of it!

Just so everyone knows, I'm a dude.

And this is why Liefeld is a plagiarist. There are MANY more examples in old CBG's and Wizards, and probably on the net if you dig deep enough. Look at these examples and TRY to tell me he's 100% original.

http://julien-gautier.clu..._copie.jpg

He sucks.

#1 Limited facial expressions, generally ranging from barely-restrained anger to sheer "constipated" look
#2 Concealment of characters' feet (which are often drawn very badly when occasionally visible)
#3 Concealment of characters' wrists, most of his own designs would have bracers or plant-pot style gloves to cover his inability to figure out how wrists work
#4 Bizarre proportions such as tiny heads, wrists, and ankles and oversized breasts and muscles (look at cap below, he looks several feet thick)
#5 Poses that appear to be both illogical (in the context of the plot) and anatomically impossible, or at least uncomfortable
#6 Skewed perspective: often a picture will be began in one perspective then be finished in another. (See Captain America again, clearly started in profile view then switched to three-fourths perspective.)



BTW, look at how BAD the above drawing is. It's horrible. There are tons of struggling talented artists that don't get any of his run, he sucks.

scififilmnerd said:

Much like John Byrne, he's just riding on his name. I know lots of people who pick up Claremont's books, just because its Claremont. They agree that his writing has become lackluster, but continue to get his stuff because of his past glories. Excalibur is, hands-down, the worst thing I've ever read with his name on it.

doctamario said:

You mean Alan Davis, right? (Chuck Austen was the horrible writer who's run on the X-Men I've already happily repressed.)

I looove Alan Davis. I wish I could draw as well as he can.

I'll take Claremont on the X-Men before any "new, hot writer" any time. He doesn't screw things up. He knows the characters and their histories and the individual parts they play in the bigger picture.

Why, he even gets their accents right, unlike, say Peter Milligan, who forgot all about Rogue's accent in his first issue.

I'll admit that Joss Whedon seems to have a good grasp of the characters, which is a very good thing, but he has yet to write a story that actually grabs me.

scififilmnerd said:

I agree that I'd rather have Claremont writing X-Men than not. However, I think Joss Whedon is doing a great job on Astonishing and has given new life and depth to some of the characters (most notably, Kitty Pryde). He is to the X-Men now what Claremont was in the late 70s/early 80s.

JediMaster said:

Excalibur has been cancelled so you got your wish.

doctamario said:

You mean Alan Davis, right? (Chuck Austen was the horrible writer who's run on the X-Men I've already happily repressed.)

I looove Alan Davis. I wish I could draw as well as he can.

scififilmnerd said:

Yes, I meant Alan Davis. Of all the comic art I've ever seen, I hate his the most. I don't understand what value his art has. It's so light and happy looking it doesn't fit the X-Men very well.
[Edited 6/13/05 13:58pm]

doctamario said:

I disagree. I think he's one of the top 10 best X-Men artists ever.

sextonseven said:

Me, too.

Now if only he'd do more issues. He hasn't had a long run on anything since Excalibur.

sextonseven said:

Me, too.

Now if only he'd do more issues. He hasn't had a long run on anything since Excalibur.

But I skipped Frank Miller's last Batman work, the Dark Night sequel because the preview art looked awful and the Spawn/Batman crossover was so bad, I got rid of it practically right away.

scififilmnerd said:

good you did, because it was awful. embarrasing, especially as a sequel to the great dark night

scififilmnerd said:

I like him as well. I also really dig Kubert's work on the X books, and Ethan Van Sciver MUST be mentioned, as he was the best artist during Morrison's run.

And is there anyone on the planet who isn't into Davis? I mean goddamn!

JediMaster said:

Which Kirby? Adam or Andy?

What does everyone think of The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen?



I heard the movie was godawful.

Nothing touches 100 BULLETS at the moment in my opinion

sextonseven said:

The series rocked, the movie sucked ass!!!

JediMaster said:

Alan Moore said in a Wizard interview that he had no intention of seeing the movie.

purpledoveuk said:

:headbang:it's the shit, dude. Totally. What do u think's going to happen at this end of the current arc? Been wondering who else here was into that.

What your understanding of what happening (I never knew the minute men actually existed in real life...which goes to explain a lot).