roanmairin said:

CarrieLee said:

[Edited 4/27/05 20:10pm]

oh my..this thread rocks!!!

actual conversations in the gd..got me all misty


my only issue with breastfeeding are the woman that make huge ceremonies out of it. its almost like the are taunting you *not* to watch them. and then they dont even use a blanket to cover...

im sorry, its not a sexual thing to me....but when your dealing with bodily fluids or personal "stuff" coming out of your body (like picking your nose) do it with some tact.

i secretly think some woman get off on the power play of it...like, "i am gonna wip out my non-sexual nipple and force the world to accept that my tit is going to be suckled"...

now, please keep in mind i live in the bay area and we got some freaky arse granola bushwoman that like to protest the opening of a can of soup. so take it for what it is.

sosgemini said:

Sometimes, discretion is the last thing on your mind though. I HATE breastfeeding in public, and as a result don't get out so much. My baby is 6 months and won't take the bottle - I have tried so many times with no luck, he would rather scream himself blue in the face. So the few times when I've had to, I've been quite flustered and I know have unintentionally shown a bit more skin than I'd have liked. No smugness about it It really doesn't help when folks give you the evil eye when you're doing the best you can already.

sosgemini said:

You made me giggle. Twice.

doctormcmeekle said:

Here here!

I've read the responses on here, and some of the comments on here make me both sad and angry at the same time.

I was sexually abused by a male friend of mine, so yes, I do have issues surrounding breastfeeding as a direct result from it. It's not always about whether a person is American or not as to why they feel the way that they do, sometimes there are other factors involved. I didn't want to disclose that before, but in reading the comments that people are leaving on here, I felt like I had to, so that people would understand why I may have a differing opinon than most people do on this subject.

Telling someone who is offended by breastfeeding to "fuck off if you don't like it", or calling them a "bonehead"; "stupid"; "uptight"; "immature"; or whatever adjective you care to throw in there, when you don't know what they've been through, is not very nice and is uncalled for. No one on this thread who breastfeeds or who are okay with it were called such names, so what gives any person the right to mudsling and call a person names who may have an issue surrounding it? Before a person judges or labels another person, they need to keep in mind that perhaps the person with the opposing opinion has a reason for feeling the way that they do.

Yes, I do have issues, and yes, I do need help in overcoming them, which I have full intentions of doing. I didn't start this thread to turn this into a flamefest, but unfortunately for some of you, this is exactly what it has become.

That's all I'm gonna say, I'm outta here.

sosgemini said:

Again comparing breastfeeding to picking your nose. WTF!

roanmairin said:

i qualified that by saying "any bodily fluids or personal stuff". there aint nothing wrong with picking your noise either..its a natural bodily process but show some damn tact when your doing it. look at the entire context of my statement rather then picking one part of it out just to further your own lil agenda, aight?

PaisleyLace said:

Did this thread not start by calling public breast feeders,

PaisleyLace said:

I believe this emoticon was also used several times.

You don't think a woman who is learning to care for a baby and is fortunate enough to be able to, and educated enough to chose to breastfeed would be offended by that.

There is nothing more "ladylike" than breastfeeding. It is hard enough with your milk not coming in quick enough, mastitis (sp), sore nipples, and on and on the last thing they need is to be labelled "gross and barbaric" by the someone because they have "a reason for feeling the way that they do".

Next time you look and think, "oh, gross can't she go somewhere else". Actually stop and think about what she is doing and how amazing it is and go over to her and say "good for you, you have a very lucky baby."

My final word.

PaisleyLace said:

I stopped reading this thread, but cut to the end to see what was concluded. You say you have been abused, sorry to hear that, and that this directly connects with the whole breastfeeding thing....don't take this wrong, but, does it do you any good as you try to get over your issues and go on with healing to begin a thread in such a way that people immediately get incensed? Is it productive and healthy for you to continue in a heated discussion, only to say this type of thing about your past at the end, and then decide you aren't saying anything else? This was a stirred pot that was not good for anyone to discuss, apparently, at least not when the thread was opened so judgementally.
Perhaps you need to continue working on some of these hot button issues with your therapist and not the org community, unless you post a thread about an issue, in the ways that Supa and others have done.

sosgemini said:

I have the answer! Breast feed in your car and no-one will see you, because everyone knows you can't see all the guys picking their noses as they drive home from work. Their nose-picking goes undetected....

Job done.

sosgemini said:

What took you so long to get here? Finally a voice with reason.

Da formation of breastz were made to feed

They also have nervez which were made for arousal.

It'z natural, and when handled wif a care, it is not a bad thing at allz

I don't see any motherz whippin it out,and if i saw a relative breastfeeding, or anyone else, i don't feel offended- it'z simply da way we are created.

It'z like when kidz needa pee in public i dunnoz...

sosgemini

said:

Yeah, I got it, it wasn't a complicated post.

I was saying "what the fuck" because you compared the act of nose picking, which is disgusting and if it needs to be done should be done in private, with breast feeding, which isn't remotely disgusting no matter how you look at it.

The context: you were using nose picking to prove that breastfeeding is tactless. Nose picking which spreads germs and illness and is just a filthy act. Is that pretty much it? Did I comprehend your complex, serpentine logic?

Again I say WTF! Now I will clarify to give you context. How twisted is a persons world view if they think that is a reasonable comparison?

Yeah, I know I said last post but give me a break, if your going to retort don't play dumb. At least pretend you can follow the conversation.


Sorry quoted the wrong person
[Edited 4/28/05 7:14am]

roanmairin said:

oh your funny..and a senstative bloke at that. how about this, you dont judge my personal confort level. because no matter what, you dont have the right to do that. i can share my perspective on an issue in hopes that women will understand MPOV and you can share yours...but the minute you have to resort to making condescending statements like the above is the minute you lose a receptive listener.

SHOW DICK SOME RESPECT! -breakfast club

sosgemini said:

this thread IS like the energizer bunny.. it keeps going.. & going.. & going!
as such, I have decided to post my opinion on this.. & hopefully I won't cause a "mini-riot"..


I DO acknowledge that breastfeeding is, in & of itself, a natural, normal, special experience between a mother & her child..

but I believe I have an opinion similar to sosgemini.


I suppose that it's a little more "awkward" for me, being the CONFIRMED "breast man" that I am & have always been..

I know that the female breast is NOT simply "visual stimulation" for any male person or the public at large..
but women (in the US, anyway) don't normally pull out their breast in a public place.
similar to what sosgemini said, I have actually seen a few women who simply.. go right into the middle of a room, look around at everyone
(to ensure that everyone has noticed her??)
then "whip one out" & feed her baby.
okay.. the baby is hungry & needs to be fed.. but does it have to be a "big production" that I may not necessarily have the opportunity to nonchalantly look away from??

as a man, it can be awkward because if you see the woman or make any type of "normal" eye contact with her, it's hard to not be aware of what she's doing.. right in front of you. someone I know was accused of "leering" at a woman who similarly made a "big production" of breastfeeding her baby..
it seems like often, men are "stuck"- either you "ignore" the act & are called & "insensitve (male) boor"
or
you make some type of "friendly, NON-SEXUAL" eye contact that is still somehow percieved to be "inappropriate" & you get a mean look from the mother or some other woman..


now it MAY be that I should "rethink" my position on this
& MAYBE my position on this will change, should I ever get married & my (future) wife has a baby..

but for now, I do my best to "play it off"
but sometimes this is not easy
& often, it IS awkward.


IS there, in fact, any sort of "breastfeeding etiquette" that might be of help?? I would certainly take a peek-
I mean, have a look
at something like that..

roanmairin said:[quote]

CarrieLee said:

[Edited 4/28/05 9:43am]

mltijchr said:

This thread is bizarre

Not to pick on you personally mlt but it sounds like some men are having issues with this because they cannot separate their sexual attraction from the act of breastfeeding. Maybe it's just different for me because there is never a time that I ever look at a breast with any kind of urge, cept jealousy of course for not owning a pair

Paisley, I'm sorry to hear about your abuse. I think that qualifier came a little too late in the game tho. I don't think this thread would have been nearly as contentious as it has been if people understood where you are coming from. And I don't think people would have reacted to those who disagree with it on a "tact" level if they had qualified it that way from the beginning.

Bottom line, I don't believe women and their children need to be slaves to everyone else. Women aren't supposed to leave the house? Women need to wear Burkas? Men need to act a little grown up and resist the temptation to drool all over the place if they absolutely cannot ever look at a breast in any other way than sexually. I mean the woman is feeding her baby.

And it's one thing if a woman is making a spectacle of it, but I have seen so many times where people get offended and the woman is off in the corner trying to be discreet. Those people really need to get a grip on their emotions because when a woman is being tactful, whatever filth and disgust that goes through someone else's mind is really their problem. Babies need to be fed, you can't just let them starve so as not to offend people. People do need to live their lives ya know. You'd think people would have a little more understanding for a child. Jeez. And it's disturbing that our bodies have been sexualized to the point that society cannot even look at the most natural body function, one in which the human race would have died off years ago had it not been possible to feed a child from your own body.

Again, bizarre.....

.
[Edited 4/28/05 10:11am]

roanmairin said:

Are you that hardheaded? Did you not read my last post where I explained why I said what I did? Yes, I did say that I felt that public breastfeeding was gross/barbaric/not very ladylike, BUT I also tried to explain (but you obviously did not understand) why I had the opinion that I do. I also said that a woman needs to do what is right for her and her baby, and that reading the responses to this thread made me realize why I feel the way that I do. I also made the comment that if I were to ever have my own child, it is possible that my opinion of breastfeeding would change.



Excuse me, scroll up and pay attention to the conversation at hand here. I only used the emoticon ONCE in all of my postings.



Probably is, just the same way your arrogant attitude towards people who have differing opinions is offensive. Your earlier comment that people who don't like breastfeeding can "fuck off" is very offensive as well, is it not?



You say you're a man, but are you sure you're not a woman trapped in a man's body? You sure seem passionate about breastfeeding from the female point of view, which I find to be a bit odd. I am beginning to appreciate and understand that breastfeeding is probably a wonderful experience for a mother. As far as going over to the mother and congratulating her, well, if it wasn't a good friend or family member, I would feel a bit ackward about it for the reasons that mltijchr stated in his post. Would hate to try to go up to a new mom to say a supportive word to her, and get my head bitten off.



This is the last thing I am going to say to you on this subject, because I'm not discussing this with you anymore. I can see it's going nowhere, since you seem to be of the attitude that your opinons are correct, and everyone else who doesn't feel that way can "fuck off". I have tried to explain where I am coming from with my opinions, but you don't seem to care or want to understand where I'm coming from. Best to agree to disagree on this one. Perhaps if your wife or one of your daughters was to be sexually abused, your attitude would change, and you would be a little more open to a differing viewpoint.

bluesbaby said:

Actually, this thread didn't get heated until a few people on here posted on here with the attitude of "it's my baby, I'll do what I want. If you don't like it, you can go fuck yourself!" That was why I said I didn't want to discuss it anymore because of the nasty attitudes that have been displayed on this thread. I tried to keep this thread pleasant and non-flammatory, but when people starting calling people who were opposed to breastfeeding the names that they did, I felt that it was time to explain why I had the issues about breastfeeding that I do. Like I said in an earlier post, I didn't intend for this to become a heated discussion, I posted it as a way for people to give their viewpoints. Unfortunately, a few people on here can't do that without getting nasty. I am working on the issue in therapy, so that I can change my opinions on how I feel.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Well said, we all owe our existence to this "gross", "barbaric" and "tactless"
act. Can't argue that.

And I think the whole "fuck off" attitude is probably coming more from some people who feel that they can impose on the rest of us because they have a kid. Maybe that is where the rub is coming from in the attitude department. Because I can say for sure that I do not appreciate people brining newborns to the theater or to a restaurant. I do not enjoy having to put up with other peoples ill behaved children.

Most parents look the other way when their kids act up and for someone who doesn't have kids to all of a sudden be imposed upon by someone's child and then have them basically act like "you can fuck off if you don't like it, it's my kid". Breastfeeding though seems to be in a totally different category because a woman isn't imposing her child on you. She's feeding it, taking care of it.

roanmairin said:

i really think you need to calm the fuck down..we are friends debating a topic and you keep misconstruding what people have said. i never once said the act of breastfeeding was tactless..what i said was, "show some tact when doing it".

i dont appreciate how you are going about discussing this issue. and i think maybe (for whatever reason) your emotions are getting the best of you...you've once said you werent going to respond anymore yet you keep coming back. paisley has shared some very personal and touching experiences yet you discredit them just to be able to make smart ass comments in an effort to 1) either bait someone into getting upset [which is against site rules or 2) to make a joke....

not cool.

PaisleyLace said:

I think this is why it got heated,

PaisleyLace said:

that's why,

bluesbaby said:

careful what you say if you don't want to offend people.

sosgemini said:

If you can show me where I have discredited paisley's touching personal experiences to make a smart ass remark I will gladly apologize.

I have responded directly to the opinions regarding breastfeeding in public expressed in the posts. After all this thread was started by attacking breast feeding mothers with insults. Does that qualify as baiting? Because I found the opening post discredited my own personal and touching experiences, as was it's intention, or how else would it have sparked discussion.

If you can't stand your opinion being countered don't post it.



Not everyone will agree on everything, that is why discussions occur.

roanmairin said:

its obvious you dont know me...i moderate the armpit of the org, the p&r forum...the one where debates like this go on every single other thread.....and your right, people should expect to have their comments countered when discussing things within a forum. but its *how* you discuss things.

you deliberatly misinterpreted my very own statement about tact...for whatever reason I dont know...but im telling you you need take a chill.....

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

SupaF, you just may have explained the whole thing in a nutshell. it doesn't help that in this (American) society a LOT of the media sexualizes so many things - especially women, especially their breasts.





it's less about women & their children being "slaves" to everyone else.. maybe it's more a question of whether a woman wants to take into consideration - any, if at all - the possibility of making some (sensitive) people "uncomfortable by her feeding her baby in their presence- whether others actually "notice" or not.
ultimately, if a woman wants to breastfeed her baby in public, she's going to do it, whether anyone else likes it or not.





this is also a good point- no "bystander" should be offended if a woman is discretely feeding her baby.. anyone who would be is probably TOO sensitive..

& we are apparently in agreement that the human body has been overly sexualized in this society.. to the point that there is this debate - here on the org & in the public in general - about a woman doing essentially what she is supposed to do..


still, a good thread.. & several good comments

sosgemini said:

That's what I thought. Consider your muscle flexed.

Sorry I missunderstood your quote, it must be the first time a quote has been refered to incorrectly in the forums in order to illicit threats. My quotes have been missinterpereted in this very thread, however I haven't choosen to threaten anyone. Admittedly in this medium I don't have that ability.

I still wouldn't choose to do it. Instead I tried to clarify my position, as I would expect anyone in this conversation to do if they weren't clearly understood.

If I am breaking a rules please edit me, it wasn't my intention to do so.

However, if I'm not don't threaten me, that seems a little childish.

roanmairin said:

i do *not* moderate this forum....i am not threatning you...im telling you as a participant and observer of this thread to chill out....do you have no respect for paisley's horrible exprience?

look, i came to this thread late...and i read it all in one shoot..at first i was a bit annoyed with how she set up her statement but then when she explained her past horror it made sense to me.

you, you just kept steamrolling the issue.