VoicesCarry said:

well, you've already developed your opinion there, it seems, but if you're truly interested, i found some information by yahoo-ing "life expectancy study vegetarian" (sorry, having problems posting links this morning...)

again, look at all of the facts associated with a meat-based diet, such as health, the environment, labor conditions in the meat industry and animal welfare practices, and THEN make a decision on how to feed yourself and your family. if you look at all of these issues and decide you want to continue eating meat, you have my utmost respect. in turn, please afford those of us who have decided to live differently some basic respect as well.
[Edited 2/28/05 2:58am]

irresistibleb1tch said:

I respect anyone who chooses a certain lifestyle, activites and/or diet and maintains it in order to improve their health. However, I think if I have children I will be careful about imposing my beliefs on them. Of course, being a meat eater it's pretty unlikely that I would raise them as vegetarians while I eat meat. Likewise it's obviously easier and more likely to raise your children as such if you yourself are vegetarian. I just think while there are some things I would of course enforce (not smoking, not too much junk food etc.), it would seem right to allow children some meat and give them a good balance until they are old enough to choose. I don't think u would deny that it is possible to have a healthy diet that includes some meat. That would absurd and contrary to scientific studies. Whether being vegetarian can be healthier is by the by. U can eat healthily and eat meat.

I guess I will just try to get my children to try a little bit of everything and encourage them to eat healthy food and should they choose to be vegetarians or eat meat I'll support them in that. It just seems a little unnecessary to extend your beliefs about it (be they on moral or health grounds) to your children. It's natural to care for your children, but to me it causes concerns regarding more than just imposing eating habits on your kids. When u have certain passions in life though, I guess it can be hard not to mould your children in that same direction, even when they've only just entered this world and are finding their feet. Personally I'm glad that this issue or indeed religion, music etc. was not pushed on me as a child.

Fauxie said:

thanks for your post, Faux, i can tell you've given this a lot of thought, and that's really all i'd ask people to do.

giving children a healthy start in life includes making informed choices on their behalf. i think that's what folks are trying to do, and it helps to look at all options.

irresistibleb1tch said:

So have you, babe. I must admit I kind of giggled when you posted that link to PCRM - wondered how long until someone would set you straight. If these are the kind of organizations you're getting info from, perhaps I really shouldn't be asking for source links.

If there is a correlation between life expectancy and vegetarianism, then there are obvious causes that do NOT have to do with meat consumption (fast food, vegetarians generally are more conscious of their dietary choices by necessity, etc.).
[Edited 2/28/05 5:34am]

irresistibleb1tch said:

In our world today, I still consider PETA a complete waste of money, resources and time for all involved - even Anna Nicole Smith and Ron Jeremy.

If all their advertising cash was put towards publicizing the homelessness problem, maybe we'd get somewhere.
[Edited 2/28/05 5:37am]

Dewrede said:

Yeah, so let's focus on the cows

VoicesCarry said:

your argument is similar to asking why Habitat for Humanity doesn't work to end hunger, or why UNICEF doesn't seem to give a rat's ass about senior citizens.

the most ardent critics of animal rights groups tend to be people who aren't themselves involved in activism or services. those who are working on particular issues understand that there is only so much one group can do, and that it takes a number of groups to achieve all of the goals needed to make this world a better place.

your and Matt's points about PCRM are well taken. i'm aware that PETA in part funds their research, but in my mind, their work is just a counter to the activities funded by the Cattlemen's Association or the Dairy Farmers of America. research independent from PCRM has shown the benefits of a vegetarian diet - again, a simple yahoo search will give you all the reports you'd want.

i've met Dr. Barnard, who runs the PCRM. he's easily the kindest man you'd ever want to meet, and far from an extremist. PCRM's advisory board includes the following medical professionals:

T. Colin Campbell, Ph.D. Cornell University
Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr., M.D. The Cleveland Clinic
Suzanne Havala, Ph.D., M.S., R.D., L.D.N., F.A.D.A. The Vegetarian Resource Group
Henry J. Heimlich, M.D., Sc.D. The Heimlich Institute
Lawrence Kushi, Sc.D. Division of Research, Kaiser Permanente
Virginia Messina, M.P.H., R.D. Nutrition Matters, Inc.
John McDougall, M.D. McDougall Program, St. Helena Hospital
Milton Mills, M.D. Gilead Medical Group
Myriam Parham, R.D., L.D., C.D.E. East Pasco Medical Center
William Roberts, M.D. Baylor Cardiovascular Institute
Andrew Weil, M.D. University of Arizona

i have supported PETA and PCRM financially and through volunteer hours, and i'm glad i have. in my professional life, i work for a community center that runs a free medical clinic, a food pantry, and after school program and other much-needed services. i feel my time, both professionally and as a volunteer, is well spent working to help people and animals.

irresistibleb1tch said:

If you're insinuating that I'm not involved in volunteerism or am not an active member of the community network, I'm sorry to disappoint you.

Anyhow, I merely feel that with 20% child poverty in the US, PETA is merely a distraction. There ARE animal rights groups that don't parade nude bimbos painted as leopards around the streets to make their cause known. But Hollywood likes PETA because it's a glamorous cause - it's harder to understand a poor child, but they can relate to mink.

irresistibleb1tch said:

Sorry, it isn't! You see, those groups work for PEOPLE, which I consider important work. I don't consider animal rights and human rights equally important issues.
[Edited 2/28/05 7:01am]

VoicesCarry said:[quote]

irresistibleb1tch said:

indeed, that was what i was insinuating. can you tell us about your work? and do you see that my work in human services is valuable, too? or does my involvement with animal rights negate all that?



that's your choice. what i don't understand is - why does it offend you so when people are able to care for humans AND animals?

irresistibleb1tch said:[quote]

VoicesCarry said:

You're putting words in my mouth - please tell me where I said your work was not valuable? Also please tell me where I said it offends me when people are able to care for humans AND animals? Oh, that's right, I didn't.

What I do find offensive is the huge promotional push given to PETA - I cannot believe people actually support that organization when their local animal shelters NEED the money way more than PETA does. PETA foists its beliefs on others - if you're involved with them, you should tell them that the strategies they use to get their message across are genuinely grating and offensive to many.

VoicesCarry said:

i'll be happy to pass on your opinion.

what i'm hearing you say throughout your posts is that the work is frivolous, that human service work is more important, and that PETA members are single-minded in their efforts. the first two points are well taken, they reflect your personal value system, and that's ok. the latter point is the one i've taken exception to by explaining that many of us are involved in human service projects as well.

in working with both animal rights and animal welfare groups, i've learned that both are important aspects of the same goal, just as human rights and human welfare are. dividing these groups, and then again dividing the subgroups points to a thinking that these are not inter-related. i would contend that indeed they are - a community can only be healthy if ALL aspects are addressed - from humans to the environment to employment and, yes, to animals.

again, let me (not so subtly this time) "insinuate" that if you were seriously involved in human service work, you would understand that it takes the efforts of many in various organizations to make the world a better place. everybody sets priorities for himself or herself. you have set yours, and i respect that. i have set mine, and would appreciate a basic amount of respect in return.

irresistibleb1tch said:

Can you please stop insulting me? Thanks.

I never insulted you, or called into question your values system. I merely think PETA is a frivolous group. How this threatens you I don't know. This is not to say that animal rights groups are necessarily frivolous, just that PETA is an extremist group that I very much dislike. I didn't question the members' commitment or outside work. I do prioritize human service above animal service work, and I think more publicity should be given to human rights than animal rights. How this threatens you I also don't know. I never meant to disrespect you and if I did, I'm sorry, although I still can't see how I did, other than stating my opinion. I NEVER called into question the work that you do or the value of it, something that you keep doing to me, but there you are.
[Edited 2/28/05 12:02pm]

VoicesCarry said:

thank you, i appreciate it.

Fauxie said:

Precisely what i meant in my post

VoicesCarry said:

Do you guys know Dr. Mercola's website?