Comsuming meat or milk products gives access to essential amino acids. Hence, there seems to be nothing bad about a vegetarian diet, as long as you consume enough milk products (cheese etc.). A strictly vegan diet is an unnatural one, as you do not get enough essential amino acids.

A strictly vegan diet is unhealthy, plain and simple. If an adult chooses to begin such a diet, it is his or her decision, probably based on ethical concerns. Hence, I will never criticise their decision, but I just don't understand why those people claim their diet to be healthy then, it's a lie!!!

Why don't they say: "O.k., I am living in an unhealthy way from the physiological point of view, but I do it for the animals, for the creatures I love so much. They are worth it."

Instead, honorable people like Paul McCartney keep talking bs in the media.

And, finally, I also do not understand why some vegetarians/vegans want to teach everyone and want to convert people to their "dietary beliefs". Eat what you want, and let me eat what I want.

you have to acknowledge the fact that meat is murder
and you're killing sweet , beautiful defenceless animals in vain !
It's just sick and cruel , and totally unnecessary !


(another typo edit:boxed:)
[Edited 2/22/05 11:55am]

Dewrede said:

You are sick, and you are boring too..

Dewrede said:

Had to edit a little
[Edited 2/22/05 11:56am]

Dewrede said:

I'd love to argue with you, but fact is my steak is getting cold!

Dewrede said:

That is your view that probably led to your decision not to consume meat. Other people might think different and may see the consumption of meat as a consequence of the natural food chain.

And, even if you say that killing a cow to eat her meat is murder, milking her surely isn't. Hence, your statement doesn't explain the need of a vegan (in contrast to vegetarian) diet.

I never said i'm vegan
I stated before that i think babies need
milk for it's nutrients
[Edited 2/22/05 11:57am]

Dewrede said:

Sorry, you're right.

I really appreciate your ethical consequence, but it sounds slightly radical to me (replace "meat" with "abortion" in your statement, and it will sound familiar to many ears). Not meant to be an offense, don't get me wrong, but I find this touch of radicalism in many statements of vegetarians, and I just don't understand the need for it.

Btw, a friend of mine tried a vegetarian (not vegan) diet for one year - not due to ethical concerns, he just wanted to test if he feels better then. After one year, he stopped the vegetarian diet, and said he felt no difference.

No worries

Sorry , can't help being "radical" about it
I just don't see how anybody can kill a sweet beautiful
defenceless animal for consumption , it just seems really cruel
to me

I've been a vegetarian for over 22 years , so i can't really remember
if i felt any different when i wasn't

EmancipationLover said:

a dairy cow goes down the same ramp to her slaughter as a beef cow. no difference in terms of ethics. veal production is a byproduct the dairy industry, and i think we all know about the ethical concerns of veal (small crates to limit movement, light deprevation and malnutrition in order to produce "white" animal flesh)

in response to your comments about amino acids, here is a good article by Jack Norris, RD, that dispels the myth of protein sources having to be meat-based.

http://www.veganhealth.or...es/protein

veganism is far from radical - it's simply an alternative way of nurturing your body completely, while leaving out many harmful substances commonly found in a meat-based diet, like cholesterol, bovine growth hormones, concentrated levels of pesticides and antibiotics, etc.

i'm not sure that i truly understand the very outspoken opposition to veganism. if somebody looks at the environmental, health, worker safety and animal care issues connected with a meat-based diet and still believes he or she has to eat meat and consume dairy and eggs, i'm all for that. if leather and fur are essential to their lifestyle, regardless of the source, so be it. but what's so incredibly wrong with deciding not to have all this suffering in your life? trying to go through life with as little negative impact as possible seems like something many would strive for.

EmancipationLover said:

i'm a life-long vegetarian, and i don't understand it, either.

well, okay. i DO understand it, but i don't understand how some people think that preaching and coersion will seduce ANYone into giving up their precious meat-based diet.

to all my fellow leaf-munchers and nut-crunchers: KNOCK IT OFF. IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. THEY'LL ONLY MAKE MORE DUMB VEGETARIAN JOKES WHEN YOU WALK AWAY. TRUST ME.

i don't believe in 'converting' people, but i do believe in advocating for less meat-based diets and, at the very least, supporting farms that practice ethical treatment of its livestock. i don't 'preach' anymore. i got that out of my system the first six months i was a vegetarian (which was almost 20 years ago).

i find that if someone's around me long enough, just sharing enough meals with me will get them asking questions, and if i'm just matter-of-fact about it, talking about how i choose to eat is more influential than trying to cram my "lifestyle" down someone's throat. my mom has cut down on the meat and fast food she eats since i became a veggie, and my boyfriend says he has fun cooking different meals for us w/o meat - so if by just being me, i can influence the people closest to me, that's all i really care about, i guess. still - even if they ate steak three times a day, i guess it's fine as long as it's not imposed on me.

EmancipationLover said:

Sorry, but you're just plain wrong about the health stuff. Amino acids are chains of proteins, and our bodies are able to synthesize them. It is not, by any stretch of the imagination, impossible to be healthy on a vegan diet, as long as you are medically/physically normal. There are a bunch of healthy vegans walking around to prove it.

Many veg folks want to convert people for a pretty straightforward reason: they see a wrong in the world and want to fix it. Many of us found our choices to be morally necessary once we discovered what happens to the animals raised for food in industrialized nations, and think it's important to share what we've learned. The hard part is accepting that people can have the same information we do and either not care or not have the will or desire to make changes in purchasing/eating. I've mellowed VERY much about advocacy in recent years, and I think there are lots of wackos out there who should do the same, but I do respect the motivations behind the animal rights movement.

Anxiety said:

I've seen that happen. It even happens large scale: check out the synopsis for South Park's episode "Fun with Veal."

MrJoker said:

i'd rather make someone go without meat by making 'em one of my killer curry dishes than to sit around preaching at them.

that said, i strongly recommend the book "diet for a new america" by jon robbins!

ok, that's as indulgent as i'll get, i promise.

I hate to think of animals suffering but boy I love my meat. I always buy free range when it's available.

By the way Dewrede, killing animals is not MURDER, you can only murder people. It is SLAUGHTER.

Anxiety said:

Well ,actually it also means ; To kill brutally or inhumanly

http://dictionary.reference.com
[Edited 2/22/05 16:09pm]

bkw said:

i think it's a matter of perspective.

Anxiety said:

reason # 894 why I love anxiety.

Well said, sir!



That being said I do admit, when pushed into a corner by a meatie, I will come out swinging in my defense. It always makes me laugh when this happens. I'm VERY quiet now about my veg ways, but SOME people take my diet choices as a personal attack on them and literally attack. When that happens, I will attack back.

is this a Moby-thread? (sorry, too many posts and I'm lazy!)

endorphin74 said:

aw shucks, thanks.

the same thing happens to me, all the time, and to this day, i don't understand what it is about being a vegetarian that puts other people on edge. it's just food! i guess maybe it makes people confront their own ethics, and it reminds them that the brown thing in the bun used to be an animal until it was killed for their consumption. maybe if it weren't for people like you and me existing in the world, people would be able to disconnect from that. i don't know. people get defensive as soon as it comes out that i'm veggie, like i made the decision all those years ago just to mess with them today.

yeah, and i was born left handed to spite right handed people. whatevs.

Anxiety said:

The World Food Cafe cookbook is great for recipes too.
[Edited 2/23/05 0:14am]

Heiress said:

great recipes and gorgeous photos!

Why am I never here when the good threads start?

I like the fact that we need the opinion of an beatle to convince us!

"UK experts immediately contested the findings of Professor Lindsay Allen"

Ohhh, I don't know those US profs know what they are saying.

".....and Sir Paul McCartney told the BBC that the claims were "rubbish"."

Oh great then that's it then, Prof Lindsey must be full of shit, afterall Linda McArtney did invented the veggie sausage

BUt onto the real issue, aside from weather meat is murder this study is clearly incomparable with the western world where a balanced diet can easily be achieved if you are properly informed.

PREDOMINANT said:

Yeah, what did the healthy Linda die of?
Shouldn't she have lived 100 years?

PANDURITO said:

now that's really not cool - she died of cancer, which has many environmental causes.

on average, a vegetarian lives 7 years longer than a meat-eater, and vegans slightly longer than that. (i know, i know, "it just seems longer"... )

i don't have an opinion one way or another about to eat meat or not but i do believe that with vegans they have to be more careful about how their kids are recieving nutrients. during the first months of life an infant needs lots of fats(good fats) and milk for bones and teeth. the fats and protein help in the development of the brain. all 3 of my kids were breastfed. they didn't eat alot of meat and not even red meat and they had lots of fruits vegs and nuts. it wasn't an intentional move to be a vegetarian i just wanted to make sure their little bodies would have food that was easy on their new digestive systems. well anyway here is another. i'm kinda new so it may have been posted 'cause it's old.

Vegan parents on trial for baby's severe malnutrition
By Harriet Ryan
Court TV
Monday, March 24, 2003 Posted: 8:27 PM EST (0127 GMT)




(Court TV) -- Silva Swinton and her husband, Joseph, followed a strict vegan diet in their Queens home. They swore off meat and dairy products and existed on a regiment of vegetables, grains, seeds and nuts.

When Silva gave birth to a daughter, Ice, in July 2000, they put the newborn on the same plan. Instead of breast milk or baby formula, Ice Swinton got herbal tea, flax seed oil, fruit juices and a homemade soy drink.

The result, authorities say, was a health catastrophe that rises to the level of a crime. At 15 months, the girl weighed only 10 pounds and had no teeth. She could not sit up or talk and had a swollen abdomen.

Doctors diagnosed her with severe malnutrition and rickets, and the Queens district attorney said it was one of the worst cases of neglect he'd seen.

Her parents are now on trial in Queens Supreme Court on first-degree assault charges that could land them each in jail for 25 years.

The Swintons, both 32, maintain they are loving parents who doted on Ice and thought the diet was best for her and her little brother, Ini, who was born after the couple's arrest. Both children are in foster care. In his opening statement last Tuesday, Silva Swinton's attorney, Christopher Shella, told the jury of nine women and three men, "At the end of the trial, you'll find that the choices they made were not criminal, but human."

The Swintons may take the witness stand in their own defense later this week. According to her lawyer, Silva Swinton suffered from medical problems, including obesity, before becoming a vegan. Both parents were suspicious of doctors and medicine, and Silva Swinton delivered Ice at home. The girl weighed three pounds, according to a bathroom scale, Swinton later told a social worker. The Swintons also refused to have their daughter immunized.

The prosecution's case has focused on the severity of Ice's medical problems and her parents' apparent lack of concern.

The doctor who examined Ice in November 2001, after an anonymous tip about neglect led to the intervention of children's services, testified last Wednesday that the girl, then 15 months old, looked like a newborn. He said her spindly arms and legs were bowed by rickets, her belly was distended and her skin covered in "the worst diaper rash you ever saw."

Ice "looked like someone you'd see coming out of a famine in a far-off country," Dr. Jay Berger of Long Island Jewish Hospital testified.

The EMT who took Ice to the hospital told jurors her hair was matted and filthy and her fingernails were so long and dirty as to resemble "claws."

The girl spent nearly four months in the hospital and in a rehabilitation center. Another physician, an expert in childhood malnutrition, testified Monday that Ice was "at a severe and critical risk of dying" when removed from her home. Dr. Roy Brown also said Ice may be dogged throughout her life by developmental delays caused by a lack of nutrition to the brain during her infancy.

Prosecutor Eric Rosenbaum also called a nutrition expert and practicing vegan who said the couple did not seem to be practicing a mainstream vegan diet. Amy Joy Lanou, of the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, said that vegans are encouraged to breast feed their children or use a manufactured soy-based formula instead. She also pointed out that the Swintons gave the baby cod liver oil, an animal product vegans avoid.

Throughout the testimony, Silva Swinton, who is free on $20,000 bail, and Joseph, who remains in jail, whispered to each other at the defense table and wrote notes to their attorneys.

Some prosecution witnesses have described the couple as deeply caring but oblivious. A doctor who treated Ice said the couple expressed "paranoid themes" about the hospital's treatment of their daughter, but also seemed loving. The mother, the doctor testified, was taking care of Ice "according to her belief" without realizing the harm done.

A social worker who insisted Ice go to the hospital testified Monday that while she had grave concerns about the girl's health, she was certain the parents were devoted.

"I was really going to try to work with the family. The mother and father obviously do love their child a lot," said social worker Kelly Harris.

Shella and Joseph Swinton's lawyer, Ronna Gordon-Galchus, have suggested both that the Swintons did not realize the danger of the diet and that Ice's problems have more to do with her premature birth than with malnutrition.
[Edited 2/23/05 9:05am]

Okay, so here's my six and a half cents:

My daughters are both vegetarian. Not quite vegan, but we eat very little dairy since milk products tend to give my youngest daughter a nasty cough.

We eat lots of rice, beans, vegetables, and fruits when they're in season (eating out-of-season fruits can be worse than not eating fruit, folks). When they want a snack, they have carrots, apples, crackers or granola bars. Or they make a PB&J. My daughters are strong, healthy, happy, energetic, brilliant kids.

Rasing children as vegans is unethical? Bullshit. Not putting the time and effort into giving your children a nourishing and balanced diet is the problem, regardless of whether you eat animals or not.

FunkMistress said:

thats good. they are getting the right foods so they won't be malnourished. i think that at least as infants that vegan parents have to be really careful when substituting proteins and fats found in meat and dairy. 'cause its easy to fall off balance and a child could have a b-12 defiency or something like that. i dunno. parents just have to be careful period 'cause these are fast growing bodies and brains and nutrients or lack thereof can affect that immensley(sp).

heybaby said: