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Philosophers... 
Philosophize... Posit something interesting, and please not from one of your self-help books or something they get you to chant in chorus at your AA meetings. | |
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I posted this in P&R a while ago.. not sure if it's really philosophy but here
"I've been thinking about politics, trying to decide who to vote for. I've been approaching it from the perspective of trying to make the world a better place. Turns out this is a real mindfuck. I think all in all (as I've said before), if the world were run by liberals or if the world were run by conservatives, the world would probably be equally miserable. Which leads me back to my long-held belief that the only ways to make the world "better" are through a) being a kind person day-to-day socially, b) giving as much of oneself as one possibly can in an abstract way (volunteering, being an environmentally conscious consumer, etc), and c) raising one's children to be similarly kind/considerate and giving. But now I've been doing some introspecting on the subject and I wonder-- is altruism even really "safe" or "reliable" all the time? I've come up with this example Say you have 75 thousand dollars. You have two options on how to spend your money. You can: a) buy yourself a new car, or b) buy a lot of bread and peanut butter and jelly and make sandwiches for all the homeless people in your city. It seems simple now to discern which action is morally better. But let's add some complication: The car factory is expanding and hiring new workers at a huge rate. You would only spend 50 thousand of your dollars on your car and the other 25 thousand on buying clothes for the homeless and helping them clean themselves up to get a job at the car factory. The company which makes the bread and peanut butter and jelly is not hiring new workers, and is not very charitable. All of their profit goes to paying their miserly executives more and more money. Is it Morally more righteous to proverbially teach a man how to fish (and expand his fishing opportunities, ie. helping the company expand by putting money into the car company) while getting something for yourself, or to feed a man for a day while getting nothing material in return? What makes an action Good- the intention of the giver, or the result of the action? Let me make another example: Simon Cowell's judgment on American Idol (or Pop Idol, whichever..). I think that it is crueller in the long run to let someone who is not talented or attractive or magnetic in any way waste their life pursuing something they have essentially zero chance at being successful at. And he has to be harsh to be effective, to make them get the message the way they need to get it. Do you believe in "tough love"/"cruel to be kind"? Is altruism enough, or does it have to be qualified altruism? Which is more important- intention or result? Perception or reality? What if searching out all the *possibly* qualifying details about the car and bread companies took away a lot of the time you would spend making money to spend altruistically? Is it worth it to try?" Then I posted this "The more I think about it the more I feel that what matters is reality and result. I would get the car and I like Simon Cowell. No superficiality. I guess what would make buying the car the more moral thing would be if you know all the information about the companies and feel that buying the car is the right thing. Maybe it's all relative." | |
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On Twin Earth, a brain in a vat is at the wheel of a runaway trolley. There are only two options that the brain can take: the right side of the fork in the track or the left side of the fork. There is no way in sight of derailing or stopping the trolley and the brain is aware of this, for the brain knows trolleys. The brain is causally hooked up to the trolley such that the brain can determine the course which the trolley will take.
On the right side of the track there is a single railroad worker, Jones, who will definitely be killed if the brain steers the trolley to the right. If the railman on the right lives, he will go on to kill five men for the sake of killing them, but in doing so will inadvertently save the lives of thirty orphans (one of the five men he will kill is planning to destroy a bridge that the orphan's bus will be crossing later that night). One of the orphans that will be killed would have grown up to become a tyrant who would make good utilitarian men do bad things. Another of the orphans would grow up to become G.E.M. Anscombe [famous moralist], while a third would invent the pop-top can. If the brain in the vat chooses the left side of the track, the trolley will definitely hit and kill a railman on the left side of the track, "Leftie" and will hit and destroy ten beating hearts on the track that could (and would) have been transplanted into ten patients in the local hospital that will die without donor hearts. These are the only hearts available, and the brain is aware of this, for the brain knows hearts. If the railman on the left side of the track lives, he too will kill five men, in fact the same five that the railman on the right would kill. However, "Leftie" will kill the five as an unintended consequence of saving ten men: he will inadvertently kill the five men rushing the ten hearts to the local hospital for transplantation. A further result of "Leftie's" act would be that the busload of orphans will be spared. Among the five men killed by "Leftie" are both the man responsible for putting the brain at the controls of the trolley, and the author of this example. If the ten hearts and "Leftie" are killed by the trolley, the ten prospective heart-transplant patients will die and their kidneys will be used to save the lives of twenty kidney-transplant patients, one of whom will grow up to cure cancer, and one of whom will grow up to be Hitler. There are other kidneys and dialysis machines available, however the brain does not know kidneys, and this is not a factor. Assume that the brain's choice, whatever it turns out to be, will serve as an example to other brains-in-vats and so the effects of his decision will be amplified. Also assume that if the brain chooses the right side of the fork, an unjust war free of war crimes will ensue, while if the brain chooses the left fork, a just war fraught with war crimes will result. Furthermore, there is an intermittently active Cartesian demon deceiving the brain in such a manner that the brain is never sure if it is being deceived. QUESTION: What should the brain do? By Michael F. Patton, Jr.  ..... BULLSEYE!  | |
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The world is all that is the case. The world is the totality of facts and not of things. [Edited 1/22/05 3:10am] a psychotic is someone who just figured out what's going on | |
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what if ...
someone raised their child to belive that up is down black is white in is out stop means go yes means no your nose is your ear you dont speak with your mouth you hear and so on ... 
( i wrote a term papaer on this @ Auburn in my sociology class ) so ... what if ? what if edit . . [Edited 1/22/05 8:13am] | |
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Wrote this a few years ago, on a thread about God and whether or not it makes sense to believe He created and designed everything in the universe:
"I'll give a different approach to this topic... IceNine basically asks: "If God is supposed to be all-loving and all-powerful, then why did he create us in such a manner that we are suseptible to disease, and infinite number of internal physical ailments, as well as painful deaths??...Either He's not all-loving, not all-powerful...or doesn't exist.".. I think the first question that should be asked, though, is this: "Why did God create us in the first place?"... You answer that question, and you will more easily find the answer to all questions that follow after it... My problem, I guess, is that Ice's question starts off with the premise that there was no reason for God's creation of us...He just did...within that context, you can indeed find yourself asking why we experience the things we do if God is supposed to be "perfect" and nothing is beyond His abilities... My thought, though, is this...remember how the argument used by many (including me) asks why God would give us free will, then deny us the opportunities to use it??...Well, to me, the same could be said of love, peace, bliss, pleasure...why would God instill in us these properties, then create a "world" in which we never get to use or experience any of these things??... Knowledge of something is, once again, vastly different than experiencing it firsthand...Imagine if we were all born with Herculean strength...and that we knew instinctually that we were strong enough to lift or move anything we came in contact with...now imagine a world where the heaviest thing we'd ever come in contact with was a pillow...In a world like that, we don't get to experience the levels of our strength...in a world like that, our Herculean strength become irrelevant, has no value...because we never need to use it...we never are in a situation which calls for us to use it...basically, we are given a characteristic which is useless...but we know we're strong, so that's enough...or is it??... To me, I'd have to ask why God would create us with the property of Herculean strength, then create a world for us to live in which we never are given the opportunity to use that strength...what sense does that make??...What purpose does it serve to posess this strength if we'll never, ever have the need to use it??... To me, that would be the sign of a poorly designed creation, to give it something that holds no use or value whatsoever... So it goes with things such as love...why would God create us with the ability to love...then deny us the opportunity to use and experience that love to its fullest??...You can't truly experience love fully without the existence of hate...so hate, by default, must exist within our world..."God does not show his love, by denying us the opportunity to use and show ours"... God created within us an amazing level of intelligence, a level I don't think we've even come close to tapping into...well, what good would it do to give us this intelligence, then create a world for us to live in where we never need to use that intelligence??...Yes, I know I'm intelligent...but give me the chance to use that intelligence to overcome some obstacle (even if it's just a debate..  ), and I start to fully experience the level and reality of my intelligence...I understand my level of intelligence better, because I've seen it in use...
To me, in my mind, God has given us in this world everything we need to experience everything we instictually know about ourselves...He's created an "environment" which requires the use of intelligence, love, compassion, empathy, strength (both physical and emotional)...and on and on...He wants us to fully understand the power within all these traits, what they--and we--are capable of...and everytime we overcome some obstacle, some supposed "flaw", we collectively marvel at what we're able to achieve as humans... Yet we also act like little kids, the human race stuck in the "terrible two's"..lol...in earthly terms, the human race has been around for thousands, millions and possibly even billions of years, depending upon who and what you believe...but in "God-like" terms, that's nothing...remember, God is suppose do have always existed...so to Him, we're like 12 year olds...lol...and, like most budding teenagers, we think we know everything there is to know...we rebel against our "parent figures"...we deem their "rules" to be arbitrary, to make no sense...as a human race, we probahly are reacting to God much as a teenager would react to their parents...give us another million years, and we'll be off to "college", and better able to understand ourselves and our world...another million years after that, and we'll be fully grown adults, laughing at the stupidity of our "teenage" years when we thought we knew all there was to know... Anyway, long and off-topic a bit..lol...but just some more food for thought...(plus it keeps me from having to post again for a few weeks... )"[Edited 1/22/05 10:03am] | |
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Life is a Flower
not because its beautiful but because it comes from something dirty and sprouts into something beautiful... | |
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Byron said: Wrote this a few years ago, on a thread about God and whether or not it makes sense to believe He created and designed everything in the universe:
"I'll give a different approach to this topic... IceNine basically asks: "If God is supposed to be all-loving and all-powerful, then why did he create us in such a manner that we are suseptible to disease, and infinite number of internal physical ailments, as well as painful deaths??...Either He's not all-loving, not all-powerful...or doesn't exist.".. I think the first question that should be asked, though, is this: "Why did God create us in the first place?"... You answer that question, and you will more easily find the answer to all questions that follow after it... My problem, I guess, is that Ice's question starts off with the premise that there was no reason for God's creation of us...He just did...within that context, you can indeed find yourself asking why we experience the things we do if God is supposed to be "perfect" and nothing is beyond His abilities... My thought, though, is this...remember how the argument used by many (including me) asks why God would give us free will, then deny us the opportunities to use it??...Well, to me, the same could be said of love, peace, bliss, pleasure...why would God instill in us these properties, then create a "world" in which we never get to use or experience any of these things??... Knowledge of something is, once again, vastly different than experiencing it firsthand...Imagine if we were all born with Herculean strength...and that we knew instinctually that we were strong enough to lift or move anything we came in contact with...now imagine a world where the heaviest thing we'd ever come in contact with was a pillow...In a world like that, we don't get to experience the levels of our strength...in a world like that, our Herculean strength become irrelevant, has no value...because we never need to use it...we never are in a situation which calls for us to use it...basically, we are given a characteristic which is useless...but we know we're strong, so that's enough...or is it??... To me, I'd have to ask why God would create us with the property of Herculean strength, then create a world for us to live in which we never are given the opportunity to use that strength...what sense does that make??...What purpose does it serve to posess this strength if we'll never, ever have the need to use it??... To me, that would be the sign of a poorly designed creation, to give it something that holds no use or value whatsoever... So it goes with things such as love...why would God create us with the ability to love...then deny us the opportunity to use and experience that love to its fullest??...You can't truly experience love fully without the existence of hate...so hate, by default, must exist within our world..."God does not show his love, by denying us the opportunity to use and show ours"... God created within us an amazing level of intelligence, a level I don't think we've even come close to tapping into...well, what good would it do to give us this intelligence, then create a world for us to live in where we never need to use that intelligence??...Yes, I know I'm intelligent...but give me the chance to use that intelligence to overcome some obstacle (even if it's just a debate.. ), and I start to fully experience the level and reality of my intelligence...I understand my level of intelligence better, because I've seen it in use...
To me, in my mind, God has given us in this world everything we need to experience everything we instictually know about ourselves...He's created an "environment" which requires the use of intelligence, love, compassion, empathy, strength (both physical and emotional)...and on and on...He wants us to fully understand the power within all these traits, what they--and we--are capable of...and everytime we overcome some obstacle, some supposed "flaw", we collectively marvel at what we're able to achieve as humans... Yet we also act like little kids, the human race stuck in the "terrible two's"..lol...in earthly terms, the human race has been around for thousands, millions and possibly even billions of years, depending upon who and what you believe...but in "God-like" terms, that's nothing...remember, God is suppose do have always existed...so to Him, we're like 12 year olds...lol...and, like most budding teenagers, we think we know everything there is to know...we rebel against our "parent figures"...we deem their "rules" to be arbitrary, to make no sense...as a human race, we probahly are reacting to God much as a teenager would react to their parents...give us another million years, and we'll be off to "college", and better able to understand ourselves and our world...another million years after that, and we'll be fully grown adults, laughing at the stupidity of our "teenage" years when we thought we knew all there was to know... Anyway, long and off-topic a bit..lol...but just some more food for thought...(plus it keeps me from having to post again for a few weeks... )"
[Edited 1/22/05 10:03am]  ~smiles brightly~
this is worth a second read .... now i'm going to read it a third time ... | |
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Mach said: ~smiles brightly~
this is worth a second read .... now i'm going to read it a third time ...   | |
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Byron said: Mach said: ~smiles brightly~
this is worth a second read .... now i'm going to read it a third time ...  love it !! | |
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Here's what I got for ya:
The general public, due to the complete lack of education in philosophy in public schools, doesn't even know what philosophy IS, as a discipline. It is the application of rigorous, logical analysis to thought and belief processes. It is highly critical thinking. Much of what you'll find in the "philosophy" sections of bookstores. . .well. . .it sure isn't GOOD philosophy. There is little involving logic or critical thinking. It's more like a variety of self-help stuff from dubious sources, with a generous dose of unfounded opinions on all things "spiritual". Anyway. | |
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tackam said: Here's what I got for ya:
The general public, due to the complete lack of education in philosophy in public schools, doesn't even know what philosophy IS, as a discipline. It is the application of rigorous, logical analysis to thought and belief processes. It is highly critical thinking. Much of what you'll find in the "philosophy" sections of bookstores. . .well. . .it sure isn't GOOD philosophy. There is little involving logic or critical thinking. It's more like a variety of self-help stuff from dubious sources, with a generous dose of unfounded opinions on all things "spiritual". Anyway. Philosophy does indeed require logic as its engine...  | |
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Fauxie said:
What's up with his hands??... | |
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Mach said: what if ...
someone raised their child to belive that up is down black is white in is out stop means go yes means no your nose is your ear you dont speak with your mouth you hear and so on ...
( i wrote a term papaer on this @ Auburn in my sociology class ) so ... what if ? what if edit . . [Edited 1/22/05 8:13am] Well, that just regards language and signs. | |
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Fauxie said: Mach said: what if ...
someone raised their child to belive that up is down black is white in is out stop means go yes means no your nose is your ear you dont speak with your mouth you hear and so on ...
( i wrote a term papaer on this @ Auburn in my sociology class ) so ... what if ? what if edit . . [Edited 1/22/05 8:13am] Well, that just regards language and signs. But the "nose is your ear" and "you don't speak with your mouth, you hear" parts aren't...they would have an effect on how we communicate and perceive others communicating with us...not to mention I think our innate logic would start to take over (if someone is moving their mouths and yelling, and we close our mouths to keep the noise down but it doesn't work...then what do we conclude?)... | |
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Byron said: Fauxie said:
What's up with his hands??... I was looking at his penis/head thing.  | |
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Byron said: Wrote this a few years ago, on a thread about God and whether or not it makes sense to believe He created and designed everything in the universe:
"I'll give a different approach to this topic... IceNine basically asks: "If God is supposed to be all-loving and all-powerful, then why did he create us in such a manner that we are suseptible to disease, and infinite number of internal physical ailments, as well as painful deaths??...Either He's not all-loving, not all-powerful...or doesn't exist.".. I think the first question that should be asked, though, is this: "Why did God create us in the first place?"... You answer that question, and you will more easily find the answer to all questions that follow after it... My problem, I guess, is that Ice's question starts off with the premise that there was no reason for God's creation of us...He just did...within that context, you can indeed find yourself asking why we experience the things we do if God is supposed to be "perfect" and nothing is beyond His abilities... My thought, though, is this...remember how the argument used by many (including me) asks why God would give us free will, then deny us the opportunities to use it??...Well, to me, the same could be said of love, peace, bliss, pleasure...why would God instill in us these properties, then create a "world" in which we never get to use or experience any of these things??... Knowledge of something is, once again, vastly different than experiencing it firsthand...Imagine if we were all born with Herculean strength...and that we knew instinctually that we were strong enough to lift or move anything we came in contact with...now imagine a world where the heaviest thing we'd ever come in contact with was a pillow...In a world like that, we don't get to experience the levels of our strength...in a world like that, our Herculean strength become irrelevant, has no value...because we never need to use it...we never are in a situation which calls for us to use it...basically, we are given a characteristic which is useless...but we know we're strong, so that's enough...or is it??... To me, I'd have to ask why God would create us with the property of Herculean strength, then create a world for us to live in which we never are given the opportunity to use that strength...what sense does that make??...What purpose does it serve to posess this strength if we'll never, ever have the need to use it??... To me, that would be the sign of a poorly designed creation, to give it something that holds no use or value whatsoever... So it goes with things such as love...why would God create us with the ability to love...then deny us the opportunity to use and experience that love to its fullest??...You can't truly experience love fully without the existence of hate...so hate, by default, must exist within our world..."God does not show his love, by denying us the opportunity to use and show ours"... God created within us an amazing level of intelligence, a level I don't think we've even come close to tapping into...well, what good would it do to give us this intelligence, then create a world for us to live in where we never need to use that intelligence??...Yes, I know I'm intelligent...but give me the chance to use that intelligence to overcome some obstacle (even if it's just a debate.. ), and I start to fully experience the level and reality of my intelligence...I understand my level of intelligence better, because I've seen it in use...
To me, in my mind, God has given us in this world everything we need to experience everything we instictually know about ourselves...He's created an "environment" which requires the use of intelligence, love, compassion, empathy, strength (both physical and emotional)...and on and on...He wants us to fully understand the power within all these traits, what they--and we--are capable of...and everytime we overcome some obstacle, some supposed "flaw", we collectively marvel at what we're able to achieve as humans... Yet we also act like little kids, the human race stuck in the "terrible two's"..lol...in earthly terms, the human race has been around for thousands, millions and possibly even billions of years, depending upon who and what you believe...but in "God-like" terms, that's nothing...remember, God is suppose do have always existed...so to Him, we're like 12 year olds...lol...and, like most budding teenagers, we think we know everything there is to know...we rebel against our "parent figures"...we deem their "rules" to be arbitrary, to make no sense...as a human race, we probahly are reacting to God much as a teenager would react to their parents...give us another million years, and we'll be off to "college", and better able to understand ourselves and our world...another million years after that, and we'll be fully grown adults, laughing at the stupidity of our "teenage" years when we thought we knew all there was to know... Anyway, long and off-topic a bit..lol...but just some more food for thought...(plus it keeps me from having to post again for a few weeks... )"
[Edited 1/22/05 10:03am] 
My philosophy is simple.....always strive to give more than you take, in all things. | |
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Pearle said: Byron said: Wrote this a few years ago, on a thread about God and whether or not it makes sense to believe He created and designed everything in the universe:
"I'll give a different approach to this topic... IceNine basically asks: "If God is supposed to be all-loving and all-powerful, then why did he create us in such a manner that we are suseptible to disease, and infinite number of internal physical ailments, as well as painful deaths??...Either He's not all-loving, not all-powerful...or doesn't exist.".. I think the first question that should be asked, though, is this: "Why did God create us in the first place?"... You answer that question, and you will more easily find the answer to all questions that follow after it... My problem, I guess, is that Ice's question starts off with the premise that there was no reason for God's creation of us...He just did...within that context, you can indeed find yourself asking why we experience the things we do if God is supposed to be "perfect" and nothing is beyond His abilities... My thought, though, is this...remember how the argument used by many (including me) asks why God would give us free will, then deny us the opportunities to use it??...Well, to me, the same could be said of love, peace, bliss, pleasure...why would God instill in us these properties, then create a "world" in which we never get to use or experience any of these things??... Knowledge of something is, once again, vastly different than experiencing it firsthand...Imagine if we were all born with Herculean strength...and that we knew instinctually that we were strong enough to lift or move anything we came in contact with...now imagine a world where the heaviest thing we'd ever come in contact with was a pillow...In a world like that, we don't get to experience the levels of our strength...in a world like that, our Herculean strength become irrelevant, has no value...because we never need to use it...we never are in a situation which calls for us to use it...basically, we are given a characteristic which is useless...but we know we're strong, so that's enough...or is it??... To me, I'd have to ask why God would create us with the property of Herculean strength, then create a world for us to live in which we never are given the opportunity to use that strength...what sense does that make??...What purpose does it serve to posess this strength if we'll never, ever have the need to use it??... To me, that would be the sign of a poorly designed creation, to give it something that holds no use or value whatsoever... So it goes with things such as love...why would God create us with the ability to love...then deny us the opportunity to use and experience that love to its fullest??...You can't truly experience love fully without the existence of hate...so hate, by default, must exist within our world..."God does not show his love, by denying us the opportunity to use and show ours"... God created within us an amazing level of intelligence, a level I don't think we've even come close to tapping into...well, what good would it do to give us this intelligence, then create a world for us to live in where we never need to use that intelligence??...Yes, I know I'm intelligent...but give me the chance to use that intelligence to overcome some obstacle (even if it's just a debate.. ), and I start to fully experience the level and reality of my intelligence...I understand my level of intelligence better, because I've seen it in use...
To me, in my mind, God has given us in this world everything we need to experience everything we instictually know about ourselves...He's created an "environment" which requires the use of intelligence, love, compassion, empathy, strength (both physical and emotional)...and on and on...He wants us to fully understand the power within all these traits, what they--and we--are capable of...and everytime we overcome some obstacle, some supposed "flaw", we collectively marvel at what we're able to achieve as humans... Yet we also act like little kids, the human race stuck in the "terrible two's"..lol...in earthly terms, the human race has been around for thousands, millions and possibly even billions of years, depending upon who and what you believe...but in "God-like" terms, that's nothing...remember, God is suppose do have always existed...so to Him, we're like 12 year olds...lol...and, like most budding teenagers, we think we know everything there is to know...we rebel against our "parent figures"...we deem their "rules" to be arbitrary, to make no sense...as a human race, we probahly are reacting to God much as a teenager would react to their parents...give us another million years, and we'll be off to "college", and better able to understand ourselves and our world...another million years after that, and we'll be fully grown adults, laughing at the stupidity of our "teenage" years when we thought we knew all there was to know... Anyway, long and off-topic a bit..lol...but just some more food for thought...(plus it keeps me from having to post again for a few weeks... )"
[Edited 1/22/05 10:03am]
My philosophy is simple.....always strive to give more than you take, in all things. Beautiful one to have.. | |
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Byron said: Fauxie said: Well, that just regards language and signs. But the "nose is your ear" and "you don't speak with your mouth, you hear" parts aren't...they would have an effect on how we communicate and perceive others communicating with us...not to mention I think our innate logic would start to take over (if someone is moving their mouths and yelling, and we close our mouths to keep the noise down but it doesn't work...then what do we conclude?)... true ... today i realized i am not a Philosopher and its all good | |
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Mach said: Byron said: But the "nose is your ear" and "you don't speak with your mouth, you hear" parts aren't...they would have an effect on how we communicate and perceive others communicating with us...not to mention I think our innate logic would start to take over (if someone is moving their mouths and yelling, and we close our mouths to keep the noise down but it doesn't work...then what do we conclude?)... true ... today i realized i am not a Philosopher and its all good Of course you are...please.  | |
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Byron said: Mach said: true ... today i realized i am not a Philosopher and its all good Of course you are...please. aww thanx Byron ( for the hug )
maybe ... just doesnt seem that way today ... | |
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Mach said: Byron said: Of course you are...please. aww thanx Byron ( for the hug )
maybe ... just doesnt seem that way today ... You're a mom, aren't ya??.. That by default makes you a philospher.. | |
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Byron said: Mach said: aww thanx Byron ( for the hug )
maybe ... just doesnt seem that way today ... You're a mom, aren't ya??.. That by default makes you a philospher.. perhaps
AND a grandma too  | |
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Mach said: Byron said: You're a mom, aren't ya??.. That by default makes you a philospher.. perhaps
AND a grandma too Then that makes you TWICE the philosopher most are..lol | |
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Mach said: Byron said: You're a mom, aren't ya??.. That by default makes you a philospher.. perhaps
AND a grandma too jeez girl, you're a grandma too? I'm so jealous. | |
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Pearle said: Mach said: perhaps
AND a grandma too jeez girl, you're a grandma too? I'm so jealous. yes i am ...
Keegan will be 3 this summer and a new one due mid april ! i'll try to post a pic of Keegan today | |
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The first thing you learn when studying philosophy is that mathematics is the only 'truth'. One plus one will always equal two. Everything else is an illusion, personal to the perspective of each individual animal/plant/bacterium/mineral.
The only exception is when two raindrops collide. That, of course, makes one big one. 
exception edit . [Edited 1/25/05 6:25am] | |
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Mach said: Pearle said: jeez girl, you're a grandma too? I'm so jealous. yes i am ...
Keegan will be 3 this summer and a new one due mid april ! i'll try to post a pic of Keegan today | |
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"It's not the length of the wand, but the magic in the stick." -Anon. ..... BULLSEYE! | |
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Byron said: Fauxie said:
What's up with his hands??... It's palmolive, he was soaking in it. Miguel  MyeternalgrattitudetoPhil&Val.Herman said "We want sweaty truckers at the truck stop! We want cigar puffing men that look like they wanna beat the living daylights out of us" Val"sporking is spooning with benefits" | |
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