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I eat honey! I sometimes refer to myself or my diet as vegan (or otherwise imply that I or my diet am/is vegan), and always as at least vegetarian, despite the fact that I continue to eat honey. I even have a tattoo that says "vegan" on my wrist.
I just wanted to say that. For the record. So there's no confusion when the issue comes up on the org. Thanks!  | |
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Am I your honey?  | |
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Heavenly said: Am I your honey?
Are you asking to be eaten? | |
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Heavenly said: Am I your honey?
 Please note: effective March 21, 2010, I've stepped down from my prince.org Moderator position. |
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moderator you waste honey by just eaing it ? | |
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Ok who threatened to rat you out?  | |
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Pooh. | |
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Muse2NOPharaoh said: Ok who threatened to rat you out?
and true love lives on lollipops and crisps | |
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I like honey
 
Ohh purple joy oh purple bliss oh purple rapture! REAL MUSIC by REAL MUSICIANS - Prince "I kind of wish there was a reason for Prince to make the site crash more" ~~ Ben |
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Mach said: you waste honey by just eaing it ? | |
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Muse2NOPharaoh said: Ok who threatened to rat you out?
The Vegan Police!  | |
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honey is the best cure for a sore throat. i love the stuff.  | |
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forgive me for being so niave, what is it that makes honey non vegan friendly? | |
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ella731 said: forgive me for being so niave, what is it that makes honey non vegan friendly?
it's an animal byproduct and sometimes the bees who make it are treaed in inhumane ways, i.e. fogging. | |
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JasmineFire said: ella731 said: forgive me for being so niave, what is it that makes honey non vegan friendly?
it's an animal byproduct and sometimes the bees who make it are treaed in inhumane ways, i.e. fogging. OK! thanks | |
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JasmineFire said: ella731 said: forgive me for being so niave, what is it that makes honey non vegan friendly?
it's an animal byproduct and sometimes the bees who make it are treaed in inhumane ways, i.e. fogging. Oh Jesus Christ.  ..... BULLSEYE!  | |
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Taureau said: JasmineFire said: it's an animal byproduct and sometimes the bees who make it are treaed in inhumane ways, i.e. fogging. Oh Jesus Christ. Wouldn't the bees just make the honey anyway? Do they really miss it if we take a bit from their hives now and again. They do seem to make a lot of the stuff. I don't think that stealing honey from bees is cruel at all. | |
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BinaryJustin said: Taureau said: Oh Jesus Christ. Wouldn't the bees just make the honey anyway? Do they really miss it if we take a bit from their hives now and again. They do seem to make a lot of the stuff. I don't think that stealing honey from bees is cruel at all. Really, I mean absolutely no offence to ANYONE when I say this because obviously I'm just a rude ignorant omnivore who doesn't have morals, but I personally find the 'vegan' philosophy rather spastic in this day and age. In fact, I really hope that those folks who don't eat eggs, milk, as well as all forms of meat, are reincarnated as a McDonalds cow for wearing leather shoes, belts, coats, or taking aspirins and other drugs that were developed by animal research. And for those folks that don't eat honey because "smoking is inhumane to bees", they can be reincarnated as toilet paper. ..... BULLSEYE! | |
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JasmineFire said: it's an animal byproduct and sometimes the bees who make it are treaed in inhumane ways, i.e. fogging.
Inhumane? What kind of fucked up philosophy is that? What should we do, invite them over for a cup of tea to have a discussion on contemporary French Semiology? Let them benefit from social security as well? Would that be enough humane for bees? Seriously, the only valid reason not to eat honey would be the fact that our bodies aren't fully adaptable to digest it, and there are no natural means to acquire it from the hives. | |
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Novabreaker said: JasmineFire said: it's an animal byproduct and sometimes the bees who make it are treaed in inhumane ways, i.e. fogging.
Inhumane? What kind of fucked up philosophy is that? What should we do, invite them over for a cup of tea to have a discussion on contemporary French Semiology? Let them benefit from social security as well? Would that be enough humane for bees? Seriously, the only valid reason not to eat honey would be the fact that our bodies aren't fully adaptable to digest it, and there are no natural means to acquire it from the hives. ...lest we forget that those mother fuckers routinely sting us and so deserve to be smoked. ..... BULLSEYE! | |
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Taureau said: ...lest we forget that those mother fuckers routinely sting us and so deserve to be smoked.
I didn't know what you meant by "smoked". I've just done some reading... http://www.peta.org/mc/fa...asp?ID=122 Apparently, some beekeepers gas all the bees to death in Winter instead of letting them hibernate! Now, I don't admit to any great empathy for bees, but you've got to admit that it seems a little "off". | |
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BinaryJustin said: Taureau said: ...lest we forget that those mother fuckers routinely sting us and so deserve to be smoked.
I didn't know what you meant by "smoked". I've just done some reading... http://www.peta.org/mc/fa...asp?ID=122 Apparently, some beekeepers gas all the bees to death in Winter instead of letting them hibernate! Now, I don't admit to any great empathy for bees, but you've got to admit that it seems a little "off". Do remember those little Zoid toys from the late 80's? Wouldn't you agree that was a tad "off" if you saw some guy stamp on a bunch of those things while they were scurrying across the floor? Sure, bees are a bit more evolved than zoids, but nevertheless we shouldn't start assigning emotions (including pain) to an organism that lacks the necessary brain structure. Sure these little guys get 'stressed' when you burn their heads off with a magnifying glass for instance, but you can program a machine to run away from heat. Given that 'stress' is just an evasive response, just because a slug "doesn't look happy" in a pile of salt, doesn't mean that if you stuck a sensitive microphone to it's mouth and could understand Sluggish then you'd hear it scream, "Ow! Fuck! You muva fucka! Ow! Ooch! I have a wife and 5000 kids to feed you bitch! Ow!" Sorry to get all technical, but if I didn't have this conviction I'd be out of the job! ..... BULLSEYE! | |
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Taureau said: BinaryJustin said: I didn't know what you meant by "smoked". I've just done some reading... http://www.peta.org/mc/fa...asp?ID=122 Apparently, some beekeepers gas all the bees to death in Winter instead of letting them hibernate! Now, I don't admit to any great empathy for bees, but you've got to admit that it seems a little "off". Do remember those little Zoid toys from the late 80's? Wouldn't you agree that was a tad "off" if you saw some guy stamp on a bunch of those things while they were scurrying across the floor? Sure, bees are a bit more evolved than zoids, but nevertheless we shouldn't start assigning emotions (including pain) to an organism that lacks the necessary brain structure. Sure these little guys get 'stressed' when you burn their heads off with a magnifying glass for instance, but you can program a machine to run away from heat. Given that 'stress' is just an evasive response, just because a slug "doesn't look happy" in a pile of salt, doesn't mean that if you stuck a sensitive microphone to it's mouth and could understand Sluggish then you'd hear it scream, "Ow! Fuck! You muva fucka! Ow! Ooch! I have a wife and 5000 kids to feed you bitch! Ow!" Sorry to get all technical, but if I didn't have this conviction I'd be out of the job! isn't there a difference between emotional pain and physical pain? while bees may not be able to experience emotional pain (MAY being the operative word here), i'm sure they can experience physical pain. and, no, i'm not taking personal offense to anything posted here.  just know that veganism is a belief system with real consequences. one can decide whether or not to live a vegan lifestyle. seems only fair to let them do as they please, especially since their actions (purposefully) do not harm anybody. | |
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irresistibleb1tch said: isn't there a difference between emotional pain and physical pain? while bees may not be able to experience emotional pain (MAY being the operative word here), i'm sure they can experience physical pain.
I looked into the bee issue during my vegan experiment... as I recall, the evidence on whether bees can experience any sort of pain is in conflict. But I figured that I ought to give them the benefit of the doubt. Please note: effective March 21, 2010, I've stepped down from my prince.org Moderator position. |
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I don't begrudge anyone making the choice to live a vegan lifestyle. What I do begrudge are people that do make that choice judging those that do not.
Not that, that has happened on this thread necessarily...just my  I'm firmly planted in denial |
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irresistibleb1tch said: isn't there a difference between emotional pain and physical pain? while bees may not be able to experience emotional pain (MAY being the operative word here), i'm sure they can experience physical pain.
and, no, i'm not taking personal offense to anything posted here. just know that veganism is a belief system with real consequences. one can decide whether or not to live a vegan lifestyle. seems only fair to let them do as they please, especially since their actions (purposefully) do not harm anybody. Sure there's a difference between delivery and reception of emotional pain (as defined by calling someone a cock ninja) and physical pain (as in hammer+head=ouch), but in fact I was just simply including pain as one of the many emotions that we as people 'experience', the very type of pain that our definitions are base upon. Bees DO have 'pain receptors' in their body, but the term is misleading. Because our 'experience'/'perception' of pain is NOT governed by our pain receptors, but by structures in our brains (that are by themselves, thousands of times bigger and millions of times more complex than a bees brain), it's only logical to assume that bees aren't gonna be feeling like we do. To claim that a bee goes "ouch" the way we do is a bit bold I think, and if the 'evolutionary state' of that "ouch" don't figure in your morals then you might as well cry everytime you walk across the lawn. Or crush a zoid even. It IS a difficult subject though because if you get TOO fundamental about it, folks would be blending puppy-dogs left, right and center! There has to be a cut off, and because of a lack of real objective insight into what constitutes 'experience' it seems that generally anything without a backbone is given a rough deal. So bees sting us, AND they're spineless. At least they deserve to go! [Edited 1/24/05 10:00am] ..... BULLSEYE! | |
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Taureau said: irresistibleb1tch said: isn't there a difference between emotional pain and physical pain? while bees may not be able to experience emotional pain (MAY being the operative word here), i'm sure they can experience physical pain.
and, no, i'm not taking personal offense to anything posted here. just know that veganism is a belief system with real consequences. one can decide whether or not to live a vegan lifestyle. seems only fair to let them do as they please, especially since their actions (purposefully) do not harm anybody. Sure there's a difference between delivery and reception of emotional pain (as defined by calling someone a cock ninja) and physical pain (as in hammer+head=ouch), but in fact I was just simply including pain as one of the many emotions that we as people 'experience', the very type of pain that our definitions are base upon. Bees DO have 'pain receptors' in their body, but the term is misleading. Because our 'experience'/'perception' of pain is NOT governed by our pain receptors, but by structures in our brains (that are by themselves, thousands of times bigger and millions of times more complex than a bees brain), it's only logical to assume that bees aren't gonna be feeling like we do. To claim that a bee goes "ouch" the way we do is a bit bold I think, and if the 'evolutionary state' of that "ouch" don't figure in your morals then you might as well cry everytime you walk across the lawn. Or crush a zoid even. It IS a difficult subject though because if you get TOO fundamental about it, folks would be blending puppy-dogs left, right and center! There has to be a cut off, and because of a lack of real objective insight into what constitutes 'experience' it seems that generally anything without a backbone is given a rough deal. So bees sting us, AND they're spineless. At least they deserve to go! [Edited 1/24/05 10:00am] fair enough, thank you for giving this issue some serious thought! two things i'm not sure about, though... for one, why do we expect another being to feel pain in the same fashion as we do before we acknowledge that that pain is legitimate, and secondly, you mentioned that we have to set a cut-off... a) that means that people have different levels of cut-off (a given), and b) why would that cut-off not be determined by our level of intent - intentionally consuming a product (and in this case, not one that is required for our survival) that is derived from an animal that can feel pain vs. unintentionally stepping on an ant in the grass. i can see a difference between the two. i guess i just like to err on the side of caution wherever possible. but that's stricly for me... i can't beat people up for making other choices, all i can do is raise awareness. what people do with that is up to them. | |
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irresistibleb1tch said: fair enough, thank you for giving this issue some serious thought!
two things i'm not sure about, though... for one, why do we expect another being to feel pain in the same fashion as we do before we acknowledge that that pain is legitimate Do you mean legitimate for moral stuff like this? This is the real heart of the argument. Because of the nature of our pain perception, the REAL crux is whether we are the only creatures with a 'consciousness' (mind). I personally believe that at least all animals with a nervous system have a mind of sorts, which makes any logical ethical cut-off impossible. (i.e. just as cruel, from a pain perspective relative to the organism, to kill an ant as it is to kill a puppy)... and secondly, you mentioned that we have to set a cut-off... a) that means that people have different levels of cut-off (a given), and b) why would that cut-off not be determined by our level of intent - intentionally consuming a product (and in this case, not one that is required for our survival) that is derived from an animal that can feel pain vs. unintentionally stepping on an ant in the grass. i can see a difference between the two.
You're an uber-hippy  That's cool. I was the kid with the magnifying glass sitting by the ant hill
Yes there's a difference, but if this difference was allowed to define our ethics then NOONE would be walking on the grass. In fact, everyone would eventually be living in life support tanks. In other words it's one thing to unintentionally step on an ant as you walk across the grass, just as it's another to smoke a bee. But what if you choose to walk across the grass knowing that ants lived there? This is reminds me of the Hindu philosophy of not eating root vegetables because it disturbs the soil bugs. i guess i just like to err on the side of caution wherever possible. but that's stricly for me... i can't beat people up for making other choices, all i can do is raise awareness. what people do with that is up to them.
Really, if it weren't for people like you then those puppies really would be blended...and for sport! Not that I would want that. I put a spider in the microwave once and it's abdomen burst into flames and it started running in circles!  That's nothing, my previous boss used to make glove puppets out of live frogs to amuse his sister when he was a kid
Yeah anyway I agree the cut-offs for animal pain perception are, and will always be vague so long as we're unable to get away from the "ouch" factor. ..... BULLSEYE! | |
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Taureau said: all kinds of smart stuff...
@ uber-hippie... a friend told me not long ago that i look like a Methodist... guess we come in all kinds of disguises, huh? 
one of these days, let's talk about that whole "mind equals consciousness" stuff - it's fascinating... (oh, and i do take it that you don't nuke spiders anymore, right?)  | |
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irresistibleb1tch said: Taureau said: all kinds of smart stuff...
@ uber-hippie... a friend told me not long ago that i look like a Methodist... guess we come in all kinds of disguises, huh?
one of these days, let's talk about that whole "mind equals consciousness" stuff - it's fascinating... (oh, and i do take it that you don't nuke spiders anymore, right?) Nah, just kittens n stuff  ..... BULLSEYE! | |
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