MIGUELGOMEZ said:

All men, always? It would seem absurd, to me, to completely deny the possibility that socialisation plays a part in a person's sexual orientation.

glamslamkid said:

Per Dr.S.:
Gentlemen, this is the General Discussion Forum! You cannot be reasonable here!

Lodger said:

Well, not exactly. It was accepted that male warriors fucked anything that moved, including (young) boys. The heterosexual relationship was still the standard though.

Fauxie said:

I agree, although probably more gay people are 'socialised' into being straight than the other way around.

SpcMs said:

Wrong! You know, I have studied history and literature!
Homosexuality was natural those times! And that's a fact!

Have you ever heard of Sappho? A female homosexual poet who lived in the Island of 'Lesbos'! That is where the word "lesbian" came from...

Lodger said:

Wrong? So heterosexual relationships were not the standard?

We're getting off the point here though. Yes, homosexual relationships have been around a long time. This much we know is true. I'm not asking about the validity of such relationships, or talking about morality, just about the causes.

Biological or sociological? Or both?

My friend who's with me here right now told me a story of a man who was well into his 60s, who'd been married, had children, but who one day saw a film with two males making love and subsequently felt a curiosity about homosexual relationships. As far as what he said, he hadn't had this feeling before, but now did consider himself to be homosexual. Perhaps this indicates that such people are not hiding necessarily their 'true selves' of simply trying to go along with what society suggests is right. I personally think there's more to it than simply biology.

Socialisation affects everyone in this world, with homosexuals being no different. How can be so sure that a child's upbringing has no bearing whatsoever on their sexuality?

I do think it would seem natural for a homosexual to lean more towards a biological reason than one regarding socialisation. Their sexual orientation is obviously something close to their very being, their essence, which would make the idea of being born homosexual generally more appealing.

My hairdresser is gay!

Ooh, and I have a friend that you would just loooove! He's gay too!

HamsterHuey said:

I know, it seems that lots of nice people are in fact gay. Now who would've thought it?

It's interesting for me to look back on growing up bisexual. It's confusing, because I think some of those things that make people realize that they are gay from a young age are missing. It's not like people ASKED me who I was attracted to. They assumed I was attracted to boys, and they were right. Normal. And being female, well, it's not strange for girls to think other girls are pretty, so expressing something like, "that girl is hot". . .eh, normal. As an adult, upon conversation with straight girls, I realize that I am not "normal" ( ) in how I view other women. But that wasn't obvious to me until I was in my late teens. Looking back, I can remember that some of the first people I thought were sexy were female, that the first people I wanted to kiss were female, that the first person I was ever actually sexually intimate with was female. . .duh. It has always been there. There is some biological component. I really think there must be. But sorting it all out. . .that was a process involving input from others. . .figuring out what I am NOT from talking to people who are.

Fauxie said:

:trying to think of some nice straight people I know:



Are ALL of the nice people gay? And that can't be genetic, because the gay people generally come from a pair of sourpuss partypooper straight people. . . it could be a recessive trait, I suppose. . .

Let's see. I think it is in the middle. Lots of 'gay' people (what else is it besides another label?) grow up in a society that teaches them being gay is a sin, so they repress any such feelings, only to act on them later in life, resulting in married (wo)men coming out. Often these changes are brought on by meeting a person that tells them it is allright to act on these feelings, most times love and/or lust are involved.

I personally was mystified by all the going-on's of my older brother and sisters. What the hell were they on about? Until I fell in love myself at age 13. And it happened to be another guy. This spooked me sufficiently. I stayed in the closet for another three years. I read about homosexuality and what I read scared me; promiscuity, leather pants and sex in parks seemed to be mu goal in life.

For me, it was not a hard thing to do; coming out. My father dead a long time and my mother a very open-minded person, I dropped 'the bomb' when I was sixteen. My mom then told me she had wagers on me at age three. LoL So, no biggie. Both sisters and my brother were cool with it, especially when they saw no leather pants appear.

I have always been a straight-acting guy, as I am attracted to straight-acting myself. How I chose to present myself in everyday life is certainly a social impact; I hated it when people called me sissy when younger (my mom was not surprised, as I always had been 'different' from any other children), so when I could grow a moustache, I did. I still have pics of me in my airforce-time that have me sporting this weak thing on my lip, always makes people I meet now laugh.

So I think that genetics makes people gay, but sociology gives it the form in which people act it out.

I once posted that I do not care what made me gay. As soon as they find a gay gen or the actual process that made me what I am, they are going to filter it out, I am sure. And it just seems very Mengele to me. So please, I do not want to know... I love being gay as it made me reshape my future and in that way, also made me reconsider who and what I am, making me a more thoughtful, expressive person. I do not take much for granted.

That sufficient, Nick?

Fauxie said:

Ever considered 'phases'? In my previous post I said something about labels. The nice thing about the previously mentioned Greeks was that they did not feel the need to label the homosexual part of sexuality.

I am sure society can awaken certain feelings never before considered, not only sexual.

I know people who experiment with sex as they do with recipes, without them feeling the need to pidgeonhole themselves in a certain corner just for their need to experiment.

Even as a gay person you need labels; top, bottom or versatile. Then you need to chose a certain part of gay culture; do you like leather or Dolce & Gabana? When you chose to like gay men that dress in leather, you need to find out what colour hanky you need in your backpocket etc...
I find ANY part of society that ties me down a nuisance. I rather run around every part of society and do the things I like....

HamsterHuey said:

Well said, Goo!!

I guess I've always thought that it won't matter if anyone can prove it one way or another. The people who hate gays will just want to weed out the gene or whatever if it's found to be biological and they'll just find more cause for discrimination should it found to be a "learned" behavior and claim everyone should give it up. Either way, it's just another facet of humanity. And I guess I don't understand what difference it makes anyway. People are people no matter who they fall in love with.

CarrieMpls said:

Or what.

HamsterHuey said:

Indeed!

Growing up with my Uncle being gay, I never know anything about it until it was explained to me by my mother what homosexuality was. She had two brothers, one gay one not, and they were raised in the same environment. Before he died my senior year in high school, I had many oppourtunities to ask him many curious questions, being that sexuality is so confusing when you are a teenager. I asked him one day why he CHOSE to be gay. I remember he laughed and hugged me and said, I never made any choice, i just am.

I sure do miss him.
[Edited 1/22/05 10:05am]

Lammastide said:

I totally agree. If society as a whole, or the subculture in which the individual in question lives, embraces a certain sexuality (whichever one), then the individual is more likely to explore that part of his/her own sexuality. But it is essentially biological. I strongly believe that.

While I think that it's probably more genetic, I agree that environment may have an influence. BUT -if environment plays as big of a part as some would suggest, then how come entire sets of gay or bisexual siblings aren't the norm instead of a fluke?
Say there's five kids in a family: one or two might turn out to be gay. But if socialization is the main determining factor, then shouldn't all five be gay, assuming they'd grown up in the same environment?

meow85 said:

Like I said; it certainly looks genetics form the sexuality, the comfort factor that you develop with your sexuality seems be part of your identity.

HamsterHuey said:

:whimper:

If that had been my box of chocs, I would have emptied out the deep black choc first. In Holland we call it PURE chocolate. Then the light brown choc we call MILK. The white choc is for who ever happens to pass by.

tackam said:

PS, I love that word. You make me whimper.

HamsterHuey said:

I love it too.

And pure (in the US it's called "dark") chocolate:

HamsterHuey said:

Fauxie said:

I think it's a combination of both. I know some people who choose to be gay, especially women

Janfriend said:

It seems to me this happens in a lot of cases because the woman gets the idea into her head that it's cool -that saying she's gay or bi will make her hip and edgy -than a genuine attraction to other women.

Most people have heard the line "Everyone's bisexual" I don't know if this could be true or not, but the theme comes and goes every few years in terms of popularity. And when it's the "in" idea, a lot of people will say they are so as not to appear unhip.

And let's not forget that there are some women, especially younger ones, who will fake being bisexual to impress a guy.




spelling edit
[Edited 1/25/05 3:17am]

meow85 said:

...but there are also those women who are fed up with their unsuccessful relationships with men and go to women thinking it will be better or just open their minds a little more. Then there are people who believe sexuality is fluid and never thought about their sexuality until they got involved with the same sex, like Cynthia Nixon and Anne Heche

Janfriend said:

In both of those cases, chances are the women are bisexual. (if you really need a label. Personally I don't like them, but they can come in handy)


The problem comes when people -and even some bi people are guilty of this -assume that you can only like men, or only like women. The assumption is that if you've only been with men for 20 years and then get into a relationship with a woman, (or vice versa) you've "switched sides".

I've had more experience with girls than guys, but that doesn't make me a lesbian who occasionally "switches back". My attractions are actually split pretty much 50/50, it's just how things turned out.

Fauxie said:

It's neither. Just an amusing past time for me.

There's nothing like walking into the dressing room at the gym, whipping my dick out and saying "who want's to play a little number on the skin flute?"

It beats the shit out of cable, and costs less.

althom said:

You can't help it...you were born with it!