I will take some medicine at work

That's an awful fight song...

lovemachine said:

Blame Red McCombs for that. He wrote it.

MrJoker said:

Well it's probably better then "Go Pack Go" 2000 times in a row

MrJoker said:

Still better than Hail to tha Redskins.
Congrats on the win over the Pack. Not such a good time here in Dallas.
[Edited 1/9/05 19:47pm]

DarkKnight1 said:

You must be kidding . . . oh wait . . . Dallas fan . . . my bad.
[Edited 1/10/05 12:01pm]

BTW, MrJoker, how do you feel about Mr. Moss? I think he's a punk. I do understand his reasons for the mooning thing -- even Dungy backed him on that -- but he's still a punk.

namepeace said:

Randy Moss is misunderstood and a punk at the same time. I think he might have some kind of personality disorder. From all I hear he does a lot of charity work - and the true kind of charity work without television cameras and glory etc. and then we keep hearing about what a hard worker he is in the offseason and how much he has grown up and trying to be a leader and then right on cue he goes and does something stupid and selfish like walking off the field.

I think Randy Moss suffers from the same disease a lot of athletes suffer from. He wants to be a good teammate but underneath it all he is very selfish and that surfaces sometimes. We have an entire generation of athletes who have grown up watching individual highlites on ESPN and they have lost touch with the idea of team.

lovemachine said:

Up until a few weeks ago I used to think and say many of the same things. I think he better than anyone helps caution players and fans not to revere the NFL too much, because it is in many ways a cruel business.

But, with apologies to MrJoker, his conduct and on-field attitude is poisoning an otherwise solid team and, personally, are an embarrassment to me as a black man. He doesn't need to be a role model, but sometimes he intentionally seizes the spotlight to "act a hot mess." But he acts like a child. Walking off the field before the game is over? I'm surprised Matt Birk didn't break his legs.

I simply don't think the Vikes can win a title with Moss on the field. They can win games. But not a title. Sad to say.

Regarding Moss, it was a little childish, I admit. But the media is blowing this WAYYYYY out of proportion. They're acting as if he actually DID pull his pants down and shit right there in the endzone at Lambough Field. Give me a break! If the Packer fans were being that bad to the Vikes as they were on the sidelines (and for the return bus ride home the last time the Vikes were in GB), such a harmless gesture is nothing compared to ruuning into the stands and punching the crap out of the offending fans like someone else did. Yeah, the players need to restrain themselves from acting on impulse when the dickhead fans get unruly, but I know at times there comes a breaking point. Go ahead and give him his fine to remind him he's being watched and can't do anything he pleases whenever he feels like it, but I gotta tell the media to give it a rest already!

MrJoker said:

namepeace said:

I understand your points but as another black man I have to disagree. Randy Moss does not represent all black men and anyone that thinks he does or judges other black people by his actions is ignorant. Of course the media will play it up because it perpetuates certain myths and norms in our society. Pro football is such hypocrisy just like the majority of American culture. It's ok to show erectile dysfunction commercials,beer commercials, and jiggling cheerleaders ad nauseam. But when someone mimicks pulling their pants down they act as though the world has ended. I attend sporting events and the language and behavior in the stands is worse than anything you see on the field of play. Furthermore, the media blows certain things out of proportion and they mention other events as a footnote. Jake Plummer flipped off the Denver fans after the booed him for his mediocre performance and that shit was barely even covered. Both events were classless, but they pale in comparison to the spectacle that is professional football. Moreover, I don't think people should be labeled as role models simply because their jobs grant them fame, large sums of money and public adulation. That is a major problem in our society. Role models should be people that you come into contact with and have a greater chance of knowing intimately. Not some random person that you only see for 3hrs a week playing a game.
[Edited 1/10/05 18:17pm]

DorothyParkerWasCool said:[quote]

namepeace said:

Of course not! I never said he did.



Of course!

But let me ask you this. When a black man is the greatest WR in the game, and perhaps the greatest WR in the history of the game, and he consistently does selfish, arrogant, stupid stuff, and he quits on the field, and he plays when he "wants" to play, and you know that he, intentionally or not, is living up to stereotypes of black men, can you say you're NOT embarrassed?

Randy Moss alone is not going to set black folk back 50 years, but sometimes some of us have to admit when someone is embarrassing some of us in the national spotlight. To not do so is to be dishonest with ourselves. We can disagree among ourselves but that is inevitable.



And to what extent do we put that on Moss?



No one is disagreeing with you. I've been to dozens of pro games and I've seen it myself.

But my focus is on Moss.

And like I said above, Moss makes some very good points in good moments on that same issue. But come on. Would Rice, Swann, Holt, etc. do what he did?



I agree with you re: hypocrisy. But Moss has a longer record than Plummer. Had it been Culpepper instead of Moss, that would have been a clearer-cut example of hypocrisy.



You're preaching to the choir. But again I think that's besides the point. Public figures don't have to be role models to do something that is embarrassing. Moss is, by all accounts, a troubled guy who caught some bad breaks as a kid, got chewed up by the big-time college football system, and does do some charitable things in the community. But he tends to consistently lower himself to the media's expectations in his public conduct. That's a shame. And the fact that he does so KNOWING that the media will put a spotlight on him is disheartening. Perhaps I wouldn't have reacted the way I did had I known the context. But he knew that the eye of America was on him and he chose to literally and figuratively show his ass. Does that damn him for all time? Nope. Does that set the race back 3 generations? Nope. But can this black man find it embarrassing? Absolutely.

namepeace said:[quote]

DorothyParkerWasCool said:

I understand your points but I am not embarrassed by Randy Moss because he does not represent me or black men, he represents himself. Of course society does not want you to think that way. The only group that is given the tag of individuality is whites in this country. So whenever a black person steps out of their place, they want all blacks to feel embarrassed, but I do not. I have a enough going on in my own life than to be walking around embarrassed because Randy Moss does something inappropriate. What Moss did was classless, but its par for the course. Randy Moss' actions are a reflection of HIS experience and no matter how much the media blows up his actions, I will not be embarrassed by them. Now if that was someone in my family, then yes it would be embarrassing. As far as a stereotype, anyone that uses Moss' actions as a validation of how black men act in general was already thinking that way. You can turn on the local news in any city U.S.A. for further justifications because the group is stigmatized. Now, if Jeremy Shockey(self aggrandizing, calling people homos) had done that shit they would have called it creative. That's just how it is in this society. I think black people should stop letting the media define us as this one monolithic entity that is represented by anyone that gets famous, arrested etc. We have internalized these definitions and we carry these unnecessary burdens around with us. Moreover, like everyone else, we are an extremely diverse people with different social, educational and regional backgrounds. I'm trying to carve out my own self definition in a society that constantly defines us and I refuse to let the actions of some football player that I don't know, and never will, cause me any heartache like I've done something embarrassing. Life is hard enough as is than to spend my time worrying about other individuals whose actions I do not control.
[Edited 1/11/05 9:46am]

You know what is really sad about all of this? Nobody is talking about the fact that the Vikings went into Lambeau Field and won this game when everyone was saying it wasn't possible. Big deal if Moss PRETENDED to moon the crowd. What is the big deal? These guys are all kids at heart. They play a game for a living. Can't they have some fun with it? People need to lighten up. Plus they gave Moss a hard time for walking off the field against Washington, who cares? The game was over. Do people really think we could have recovered an on-side kick and got off another play with 2 seconds left on the clock? No way.

GO MOSS!
GO DAUNTE!
GO VIKINGS!



Prediction for Sunday - Vikings 35 Eagles 24 and Moss gets fined for something people won't like. Like scoring 4 TD's against the Eagles!

namepeace said:

The Vikes wouldn't win anything without Moss on the field. It would be like the Packers without Favre or the Eagles without T.O. People may not like Moss and his antics, but the fact remains he is the best WR in the NFL.

way2funky said:

That's what I said. They can win, but I don't think they can win the Big One unless and until Moss gets his act together. He means a lot to his team, but he costs them a lot too. Cris Carter (who was a real head case backinaday) eventually matured into a class act, and for his sake I hope it can happen with Moss.

I'd go one further. Randy Moss is the Michael Jordan of his position. There is no one -- NO one -- that has played the WR position with more talent than Randy Moss.
[Edited 1/11/05 13:31pm]

DorothyParkerWasCool said:

Of course Moss doesn't represent me. Nor does society determine my role models. But that doesn't mean you can't be embarrassed by what this rich and famous black man did on national television. Does that mean I wear a sackcloth the next day and confess on behalf of my race? Hell no. Why shouldn't black folk like me, who hate much of what Randy does, express that point of view, and why should it be implied that we're the victims of mind control by the white populace when we do so?



Come on! Put some context to my words. You don't see me protesting in the street. I am professing an opinion on a message board.



So if we're not to be a monolithic entity, it is perfectly acceptable for some of us to express our opinion about him, right? We may have a variety of opinions, but those opinions shouldn't be suppressed out of some sense of racial solidarity. If Moss doesn't represent us as a whole, then those who don't dig what he does with his immense exposure should say so. Right?



I think you've blown my comments way out of proportion. I'd agree with you otherwise, but I think your points lack the proper context for mine.

WTF does "skol" mean anyway? If it's supposed to be a viking reference the only word appropriate is "skål" which means "cheers".

Teacher said:

I thought Skol was a cheap lager they have here in the UK.

JDINTERACTIVE said:

Now I'm even more

Moss has issues but I would love to see a star on his helmet. Its irrelevent who gets to the superbowl out of the NFC. Whoever comes out of the brutal AFC will dominate the big game.

namepeace said:

No I haven't blown them out of context. You pretty much did that on your own when you said HIS actions were embarrassing to YOU. Moreover, if you go back and read my intial posts I critiqued Moss' behavior. I just don't think it warrants the attention that ESPN/Sports Radio/Print Media give it by talking about it ad nauseam and black people feeling "embarrassed" by it. Lastly, where did I say that we should show some racial solidarity? I'm just making a point about your mindset and how I do not agree with it. Embarrassed about the actions of a football player?! Come on, its really not that big of a deal. Unfortunately, we are conditioned to think certain ways and we often never realize it. Upon seeing Moss MIMIC mooning, I laughed at the silliness/juvenile nature of his actions and thought to myself that the media will blow this WAY out of proportion. I was not and do not feel embarrassed by it. Since you want to identify with famous black men/people, why don't you take pride from the countless famous individuals that act accordingly? Their actions are not embarrassing, but then again the press doesn't cover those stories.

As someone stated before, this sensationalism has taken away from a great accomplishment the Vikings made Sunday and it overlooks the serious threat Minnesota poses to all teams in the NFC.
[Edited 1/11/05 15:41pm]

DorothyParkerWasCool said:

You absolutely have. You've taken one part of a post, absolutely out of context to the point where we're talking about semantics. I told you how "embarrassed" was intended and you refused to accept it or alter your view. So whose fault is that?

I don't tie my fate to Moss, but you assume so, despite the fact you know nothing about me.

Fact of the matter is, as a black man, you should be well aware of the fact that there are many people in the public eye, be it you or me at work, or Richard Parsons, or Barack Obama, or Randy Moss, that are scrutinized for our conduct in larger American society. Any community is going to pay attention to how its more prominent figures are going to conduct themselves in a larger environment, and while it does not affect one's livelihood or conduct, it does affect perceptions of that community. No?

And when, in the midst of a plethora of classy public figures in sports, one who knows he's being scrutinized conducts himself in a manner where he is overhadowing the rest of his peers, you shouldn't feel bad for the black NFLers that don't do that stuff? Or you shouldn't feel a sense of disappointment that such a gifted person of color chooses to play down to expectations?

Or should it not bother me because it's not affecting my work, family or other endeavors? Extend your reasoning to its natural conclusion, and we shouldn't be embarrassed by the misconduct of our government or military overseas because it doesn't directly affect our lives.



I talked about it in the context of a discussion with a Minnesota fan. I have no control over what the media does. But again you don't answer the question: what responsibility does Moss have for even doing that in the first place? This isn't pulling out a sharpie, shaking pom-poms, or mocking another player's dance after a touchdown. He knew what he was doing, he planned it, and he knew he was gonna get heat.

So you critiqued Moss' behavior but you criticize me for being embarrassed? So much for diversity of opinion.

The media overexposure was a perfectly foreseeable consequence of his antics. He knew he was gonna catch heat for it, which is why he did it. And he took away from Culpepper's performance and the team itself.




You don't even understand my mindset so your point is misguided. And you made a bigger deal out of it by continuing to blow my comments out of proportion and ignoring my repeated requests to place the comment in the appropriate context. But you can't tell some folk fat meat's greasy. You're entitled to your opinion about my comments and mindset. You're just flat-out wrong.

My question about racial solidarity was a rhetorical one, and you dutifully took the bait, but I wasn't really addressing that to you. But you do seem (seem being an assumption, because unlike you, I won't make any because I don't know you) to imply that we should live and let live, that some black folk are going to act different and shouldn't be held to a higher standard, and that the media is responsible for blowing this out of proportion without taking into account the guy who drew the attention in the first place. You're welcome to clarify, but that's the vibe I'm getting from you.


Oh yeah: many of our children look to these pro athletes as their role models, rightly or wrongly. That's the way it is and you KNOW it.

So they may just be "pro athletes" to you, but they're something more to many of these kids. Moss is generous to the kids he comes in personal contact with, but he's not sending out a good message to the kids who watch him and perhaps idolize him across the country.

So pretty please. With sugar on top. Pay attention to my clarifications.
[Edited 1/11/05 15:58pm]

namepeace said:

Some of the people that moon opposing teams as they leave Lambough are probably parents to children and therefore supposed role models as well. Just something to think about.

I heard some commentator on the radio last night talk about how Randy COULDN'T have been acting out as revenge for the way the Packer fans acted themselves towards him, and he insisted that it couldn't have been that because the people who go to games there are so nice and pleasant and aren't capable of such indecency. Bullshit, I say! Did it occur to him to include those assholes who are out there mooning team busses as they're leaving? What a joke!

namepeace said:

Of course I'm aware of it. I just choose not to be governed by it or to live my life with this someone maybe judging shroud hanging over me. The subjegation of a stigmatized group will not cease until said group has power to control the institutions that govern their images and their society. Being a model citizen is important, however, the inequality in this society is so intrisic that they will always find something to justify the "inferior" group's position. This is also true of Morrocans in early 20th century France and Koreans in post WWII Japan. No matter what our public figures do, we will have the nightly news with its first 11 mins of street crime and unidentified black male stories, to justify our supposed inferiority.



Now you have taken this argument to the political arena? As I stated in my previous post its a football player in a football game. This has nothing to do with my views about the government or the military. That is a very poor analogy.




I know for a fact T.O.'s celebrations are planned and both players get heat for them. Again you are taking a mock/mimic mooning way out of proportion.



No actually we are taking away from Culpeppers performance by not giving him the credit for what he accomplished on the field. We(Mass Media/Soceity) are choosing to focus on a mock mooning like it was the end of the world. If no one paid Moss' silly celebration any attention, then this would not be a discussion. As far as critizing you and critiquing Moss. Again I think being embarrassed by someone else pretending to moon the crowd at a football game is more alarming than someone doing a mimic mooning. Because the former reflects a line of thinking that black people have that really bothers me, mainly because they are looking through someone elses eyes and from somoeone else's perspective and often they don't even realize it. It's impossible to control the actions of 36million people.





Believe me I know that mindset all too well.



That is pretty much my stance. You nailed it! But I don't use black folk I say black people.



So Moss' actions are going to set the kids on an even worse course? I will say this Kobe was the epitomy of class on the court and we all saw how that turned out. And don't even let me get on pre-'94 squeaky clean OJ. The people around them knew they had issues, but the outside world wasn't given this priviledged info. Let's just agree to disagree. I don't agree with your point of view but I can respect it as conservative and outdated as it maybe. A little advice, try to find a self definition and try not to feel like every little action is going to paint all black people in a negative light. Because as I said before, anyone that buys into that B.S. already felt that way to begin with.
[Edited 1/11/05 17:42pm]

Teacher said:

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/w...a_Vikings, "Skol is the Swedish word for a salute or a toast, as to an admired person or group."

DorothyParkerWasCool said:

And therein lies the fundamental, fatal flaw of your argument. You presume a shroud hangs over me. You presume embarrassment means unabiding shame. Anyone who knows me would laugh you out of the room for being so presumptuous. Make mountains out of molehills if you must.



That's a nice and pretty statement you just made, which I happen to agree with. But lemme let you in on a little secret . . .

We DO control certain institutions that govern this society.

Like, for example, the sports arena. Blacks have the power and the money to control our own images in this increasingly influential aspect of American society. Moss therefore possesses a share of this control. And look at how he continues to use it. Now, it doesn't affect my life one bit. But I can be embarrassed to see a black man squander these resources to act a damn fool.



But as you know, stigmatized groups begin to internalize these stereotypes foisted upon them. And in this era, the true battle lies not in the perception of whites, but our perception of each other. Do you not see it in our cultural imagery? Is it not prevalent to you? This is a subject for another day, but I think you're off in framing the issue. It's about how we see ourselves.



It is an extreme analogy, I know, but this was to highlight my problem with your line of reasoning, that one shouldn't be embarrassed by the conduct of another person with no direct relationship to them. If I am a Catholic, I can be embarrassed by the sex abuse scandals in the Church. If I am an American, I can be embarrassed by whatever misdeeds we commit in the public arena. And if I am a black man, I can be embarrassed when another black man does something stupid in the public arena. The level of embarrassment depends on the circumstance. But you make the clear and repeated error of assuming that my level of embarrassment is more than minor. It wasn't. But somehow you assumed as such, and there we went.



Try to put something into context one time. JUST ONE TIME.

It is a minor incident that is but a blip in our consciousness. Kids aren't going to be recidivist offenders because of one fake mooning incident. I never implied as such, though you fervently wish to believe as such. But they do pay attention. And. the accumulation of stupid behavior among public figures does affect children's perceptions of society and of behavioral norms (how's that for a prettified sentence?).



Okay. So there was less to them than meets the eye. So would your point be that all squeaky-clean athletes are phonies? Or that the images they project don't matter at all? Hypocrisy has a damaging effect like stupidity, but each incident is different.





That's the first time I've ever been called conservative. The folks on P&R would die of shock reading that!

But if it's outdated to feel a tinge of embarrassment that a black man with such rich opportunities continues to play down to expectations set on him by a ravenous media out to crucify him, then so be it. I guess I shouldn't care at all.

I simply don't think you've understood the context of my original post, and that error has been compounded in your subsequent posts. But that's all right.

MrJoker said:

They prolly spelled it with an "o" because it's closer to the pronunciation. The REAL word is SKÅL though.