bkw said:

omg bkw is so hot

irresistibleb1tch said:

Again, I can see your point, but when I was spanked, I didn't view it as being physically abused. We can go on and on forever about this, but I don't think any of us are going to agree with the other person's viewpoints.

psychodelicide said:

Psycho... please don't misunderstand my post - i appreciate your insights and opinions very much.

i know that this is a tough topic for many, and there doesn't seem to be any middle ground. i was just hoping that, in looking at what other cultures do, we can all learn to find the best way of raising our children to be spirited AND well-adjusted adults.

for example, i've noticed that in the Latino culture, children seem to be very much integrated into all of the activities, so that all ages participate in daily life. there seems to be very little in terms of tantrums, etc.

i'd also love to know more about the Asian concept of raising children - if there is such a broadly defined thing. could anybody fill us in on how Asian parents understand discipline?

No misunderstanding here whatsoever, you've always been totally cool with me. Latinos and Asian children do seem to be very well raised. I have noticed that Native American children have been raised well too, they are extremely polite people. I have admired that for many years, and I have always told my mom how Latinos, Asians, and Native American children as so well behaved, and how some of us could use it as an example as far as how to raise our children. But you're right, there is no middle ground as far as if spanking is the correct thing to do.

doctormcmeekle said:

a good dirty look usually takes care of it. i've shut up many a child and shamed many a parent by only using my eyes.

tackam said:

Alternatively, parents can do what my parents did when they wanted to have dinner at a nice restaurant: hire a babysitter for the night. Not only was it considerate toward other diners, but it also gave them an evening off from taking care of three kids.

Having kids does involve a lot of sacrifices. For some people, those sacrifices are worth it. For others, such as myself, they're not. That's one reason why I've decided not to be a father.

JasmineFire said:

Actually, because of the liquor laws in some states, there are pub-type restaurants that require people to be 18 or 21 years old just to enter. I used to work across the street from one. Also, many restaurants have a separate bar area where the same menu is offered, and in those states, that section is off-limits to patrons under a certain age.

irresistibleb1tch said:

You might have a point there, but then again, what fits one culture, might not fit another.
My parents never raised a hand on me. And I don't think it would've helped, since I was a very stubborn boy, and nothing would've stopped me from acting the way I want to. But fortunatly I was a fairly good kid. My brother would get in a lot of trouble, and no, they never raised a hand on him either. We both turned out to be good people.

Scotty2funky said:

[Edited 12/14/04 0:17am]

psychodelicide said:

I didn't mean you specifically, I meant society in general. Why do YOU think it's okay to hit a child, but not an adult?

BabyCakes said:

Same question as psychodelicide: Why do you think it's acceptable to hit a child, but if you did the same to an adult you'd be in deep shit?

meow85 said:

I know you weren't asking me, but your question needs an answer...
because grown folks are old enough to know what's right and what's wrong. If
they choose to do the wrong thing, well, that's on them and they'll pay the consequences. Children, on the other hand, need guidance and direction. They are still learning the ways of the world. Part of raising a child involves discipline...they have to know that they will have to pay for acting up. I have seen firsthand many kids who act up and they know their parents will not spank them...this is not cute and it's not good parenting.

And, as long as they know the ground rules BEFOREHAND, by this I mean starting at an early age, kids will behave and you won't have to spank them at all.
The threat of a spanking is enough to keep these kids in check.

I don't mean to sound harsh, because I've only had to spank my kids a handful of times, but kids need to know their boundaries...it's in their nature to push those boundaries, and they need to know when enough is enough.

AMEN, you answered the question better than I ever could, and I agree with your opinion wholeheartedly.

Revolution said:

This point has already been brought up by someone else, but it bears repeating:

What about a developmentally disabled adult, or your senile grandmother? They may be adults, but they function on the same level as children. Why is it then not okay to hit them, as you would a disobedient child?

The "they can't learn any other way" argument is a cop-out anyway, IMO. A lot of adults desperately need to be slapped, yet it would still be considered assault if you did so.

irresistibleb1tch said:

I was on an Aerolineas Argentinas flight to Buenos Aires from Melbourne (an 18 hour flight) with my 10 month old "lap-baby". Close to the end of the journey he started to cry. Being a plane full of mainly latino folk, you know what happened? We had offer after offer from other passengers to take him for a walk around the plane, to hold him on THEIR lap to give us a break, to give him his bottle etc. I was so tired and emotional by this point I was in tears, so amazed and grateful at their generosity - it wouldn't happen on a plane full of Australians, that's for sure.
Tonight I have been invited to a restaurant, not a children's one really, but since I am breastfeeding (and my husband will be at home looking after the other 2 boys) I will have to take my 9 week old baby with me. Evenings are not his best time of day, so I am anticipating that he may cry. My friends are saying they'll help hold him and stuff so I can eat, they are really putting the pressure on me to go. On one hand I'm thinking of not going so as not to disturb other diners (although from what I've heard it's a pretty noisy place), and on the other I haven't seen my friends for so long I'll really regret it if I don't go. I don't know what to do!?

meow85 said:

There is a major difference there...instead of dealing with an undisciplined
child, which is what we were talking about, you are dealing with a handicapped
individual. To me, that takes even more patience. God bless people who have
the patience to work with disabled people...honestly, I don't think I have it.

meow85 said:

A developmentally disabled adult or a senile grandmother does not have the same brain capacity as a young child does. A young child can be taught what is not and not acceptable, whereas someone who is disabled or senile cannot, due to the fact that their brains are not functioning the way that it should.

I don't think anybody purposely spanks their child with the intent to hurt them. I've seen kids calm down pretty darn fast if the parents tell them what they did wrong, and if they do it again, they may get spanked.

Has anybody ever seen that reality TV show Nanny 911? I watched it tonight, and am shocked by some of the things I saw. Little 3 and 4 year old kids purposely throwing blocks at their mother's head, throwing screaming fits, you name it. The parents who let their kids run everything are the ones who should be slapped, since they're letting the kids run everything, when it should be the other way around.

charlottegelin said:

Do you have a breast pump where you could put your breast milk into your baby bottles for your son? I used to work with a lady who did that, since she had to work full time, and it seemed to work really well for her. If you could do that, then you could leave the baby with your husband, and you could go out and have a good time (we all need to get away for a few hours now and again). Not sure how you would feel about leaving your baby (I know it can be hard for moms), but I would hate to see you give up a fun night with your friends.

Revolution said:

As far as spanking goes, if they function on the same level as a child, I don't see a difference. The argument usually given in favour of spanking is that the child can't learn any other way -but neither could a developmentally impaired adult. So why is it assault if you hit the adult, but acceptable punishment if you hit the child?
[Edited 12/15/04 19:37pm]

psychodelicide said:

But that doesn't answer my question: Why is it assault -legally considered "wrong" and a punishable offense -if one hits an adult, but an acceptable punishment to do the same to a child? Why is the exact same action seen as an attack if it's directed at someone (usually) around the same size and strength, but A-okay when directed at someone much smaller and (usually) less able to hit back?

meow85 said:

I think Revolution explained it very well:

Revolution said:

I don't know why you keep asking this question over and over again, when it has already been sufficiently answered by several people on this thread.
[Edited 12/15/04 20:07pm]

psychodelicide said:

Because I don't think it has been answered. People don't give kids enough credit. I may not be a parent, but at 19 I've only recently been a kid, so I feel I have some authority on the issue. If you can't raise your child without resorting to hitting them, you're just not trying hard enough.




So just answer the damn question: why is it okay if it's a child you're hitting, but assault if it's an adult?
[Edited 12/15/04 20:09pm]

You think you have authority on the issue as to whether or not a parent is allowed to spank or not spank her child? Since when, and who gave you that authority?

I'm not going to answer the question, since I already have, and you STILL don't seem to get it. You seem to have your own set ideas, but are not willing to listen to someone else's point of view. It would be interesting to see how you would react if you had a kid who did not behave, I'll bet your viewpoints would change.
[Edited 12/15/04 23:32pm]

psychodelicide said:

As for myself, I would never, never use corporal punishment anyone, and especially not a child. Like I said, if a parent thinks they need to resort to violence to get the message across, they're just not trying hard enough. My opinion is not going to change for anything -inflicting pain to teach a lesson is WRONG.

You have not answered my question: you've carefully manoevered around it. Maybe it's because you can't see how fucking twisted the whole thing is. I'll ask one more time, and it's directed not just at you, but anyone who supports corporal punishment:

Why is it okay to hit a child, but not an adult? And don't give me that "it's the only way they'll learn" bullshit -a lot of adults need to be slapped, yet it would be assault if someone did.

meow85 said:

I'll add something else to that: Legally, it's okay to use "reasonable" corporal punishment on a child until they reach the age of majority. (it's 19 here) How do you draw a line like that? February 20th little Johnny is a child and it's okay to slap him if he steps out of line, but February 21st he's an adult and can haul your ass to court for doing so?

meow85 said:

And you didn't answer my question about who gave you authority as to whether to spank or not to spank a child, so I guess that makes us even as far as "maneuvering" around a question.
[Edited 12/15/04 23:34pm]

I say send all these kids to Willy Wonka's chocolate factory.

meow85 said:

Heavenly said:

i understand this discussion is a hot topic, it will remain one, and will not be resolved by any of us here at the org. the deal is, children NEED discipline in life... they need it to grow, to learn and to find their way in their young lives... we as adults have punishments as well, i myself think its rather harsh that if i am caught speeding, i am required to pay a ticket upwards of $150.00 - my point is.. punishment is punishment, and you have to have guidelines in order to know what you can and cannot do in life. as parents, which i know some of us are here.... it is up to us to hand down punishments to our children. i dont believe in spanking your kids when you are angry, thats probably not very smart, you could hurt them and that would be totally wrong. but, i DO believe that after you have gone over all other means of expressing yourself and a child still cannot get themselves under control it is the parents JOB to put them back in line. i RARELY spank my kids, but, if i need to i will... and why would i do it ???? because i love my babies, thats why !!!! i want them to be successful, happy, well-balanced people when they grow up... its my reason for everything i do in life.

the whole resturant thing, thats not such an issue with me, kids can act crazy anytime, you never really know when its comming... but, what im talking about is the real serious stuff in life that demands your immediate attention ....

i always give my children the opportunity to sit and talk with me about the problems we are having.... they are allowed to express themselves and tell me why they are acting the way they are. if after we talk about it, things are better, the issue is dropped. if after discussing it with me things dont change, or get worse, i will, and my children know i will move to the next level. there is nothing wrong in my opinion with keeping your children in line... there is something wrong in my opinion with allowing your children to become a public headache.

i believe i have said this before, and i will say it again, if you have no children, you CANNOT understand what it means to go through day in and day out parenting.