Wanted to put these up here for my fellow vegetarians. I am not trying to start a debate. How could anyone argue with these folks anyway?

from http://choices.cs.uiuc.ed...arian.html



'I used to be a meat lover. And oh man, how I loved to eat meat! But when I stopped to think about what I was doing (I mean really think, i.e., to reflect deeply on the subject), the remorse was so big that I would get depressed. Luckily, being a vegetarian is much easier and much more fun than I first imagined Urbana, july/2000.

Vegetarian Quotes
"For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seed of murder and pain cannot reap joy and love."
Pythagoras, mathematician
"The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look on the murder of men."
Leonardo da Vinci, artist and scientist

"To a man whose mind is free there is something even more intolerable in the sufferings of animals than in the sufferings of man. For with the latter it is at least admitted that suffering is evil and that the man who causes it is a criminal. But thousands of animals are uselessly butchered every day without a shadow of remorse. If any man were to refer to it, he would be thought ridiculous. And that is the unpardonable crime."
Romain Rolland, author, Nobel Prize 1915

"If a group of beings from another planet were to land on Earth -- beings who considered themselves as superior to you as you feel yourself to be to other animals -- would you concede them the rights over you that you assume over other animals?"
George Bernard Shaw, playwright, Nobel Prize 1925
"What is it that should trace the insuperable line? ...The question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer?"
Jeremy Bentham, philosopher

"In their behavior toward creatures, all men are Nazis. Human beings see oppression vividly when they're the victims. Otherwise they victimize blindly and without a thought."
Isaac Bashevis Singer, author, Nobel Prize 1978

"Our task must be to free ourselves . . . by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature and its beauty."
"Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances of survival for life on earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."
Albert Einstein, physicist, Nobel Prize 1921

"I am in favor of animal rights as well as human rights. That is the way of a whole human being."
Abraham Lincoln, 16th U.S. President

"You have just dined, and however scrupulously the slaughterhouse is concealed in the graceful distance of miles, there is complicity."
Ralph Waldo Emerson, essayist

"As long as there are slaughterhouses, there will be battlefields."
"What I think about vivisection is that if people admit that they have the right to take or endanger the life of living beings for the benefit of many, there will be no limit to their cruelty."
Leo Tolstoy author

"I cannot fish without falling a little in self-respect...always when I have done I feel it would have been better if I had not fished."
Henry David Thoreau, author

"While we ourselves are the living graves of murdered beasts, how can we expect any ideal conditions on this earth?"
"Atrocities are not less atrocities when they occur in laboratories and are called medical research."
George Bernard Shaw

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated."
"To my mind, the life of a lamb is no less precious than that of a human being."
Mahatma Gandhi, statesman and philosopher

"I am not interested to know whether vivisection produces results that are profitable to the human race or doesn't...The pain which it inflicts upon unconsenting animals is the basis of my enmity toward it, and it is to me sufficient justification of the enmity without looking further."
Mark Twain, author

"Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages."
Thomas Edison, inventor


Fabio Kon
Last modified: Sat Sep 23 14:56:59 CDT 2000 '
[Edited 11/30/04 18:37pm]

Vegetable murderors!!! All of you!

Good read !

MEAT IS MURDER !!!
[Edited 11/30/04 19:20pm]

irresistibleb1tch said:

... enjoyed reading those

Carrot Juice is Murder -The Arrogant Worms


Listen up brothers and sisters come hear my desperate tale
I speak of our friends of nature trapped in the dirt like a jail
Vegetables live in oppression, served on our tables each night
This killing of veggies is madness, I say we take up the fight
Salads are only for murderers, coleslaw's a fascist regime
Don't think that they don't have feelings, just cause a radish can't scream

Chorus:
I've heard the screams of the vegetables (scream, scream, scream)
Watching their skins being peeled (having their insides revealed)
Grated and steamed with no mercy (burning off calories)
How do you think that feels (bet it hurts really bad)
Carrot juice constitutes murder (and that's a real crime)
Greenhouses prisons for slaves (let my vegetables go)
It's time to stop all this gardening (it's dirty as hell)
Let's call a spade a spade (is a spade is a spade is a spade)

I saw a man eating celery, so I beat him black and blue
If he ever touches a sprout again, I'll bite him clean in two
I'm a political prisoner, trapped in a windowless cage
Cause I stopped the slaughter of turnips by killing five men in a rage
I told the judge when he sentenced me, "This is my finest hour,
I'd kill those farmers again just to save one more cauliflower"

Chorus

How low as people do we dare to stoop,
Making young broccolis bleed in the soup?
Untie your beans, uncage your tomatoes
Let potted plants free, don't mash that potato!

I've heard the screams of the vegetables (scream, scream, scream)
Watching their skins being peeled (fates in the stir-fry are sealed)
Grated and steamed with no mercy (you fat gourmet slob)
How do you think that feels? (leave them out in the field)
Carrot juice constitutes murder (V8's genocide)
Greenhouses prisons for slaves (yes, your composts are graves)
It's time to stop all this gardening (take up macrame)
Let's call a spade a spade
(is a spade, is a spade, is a spade, is a spade.....)

Argumentum ad verecundiam

The Appeal to Authority uses admiration of a famous person to try and win support for an assertion. For example:

"Isaac Newton was a genius and he believed in God."

This line of argument isn't always completely bogus when used in an inductive argument; for example, it may be relevant to refer to a widely-regarded authority in a particular field, if you're discussing that subject. For example, we can distinguish quite clearly between:

"Hawking has concluded that black holes give off radiation"

and

"Penrose has concluded that it is impossible to build an intelligent computer"

Hawking is a physicist, and so we can reasonably expect his opinions on black hole radiation to be informed. Penrose is a mathematician, so it is questionable whether he is well-qualified to speak on the subject of machine intelligence.

(Source: http://www.infidels.org/n...logic.html)

matt said:

hi Matt! figured i'd see you here!

irresistibleb1tch said:

No surprise, eh?

irresistibleb1tch said:

I'm trying to look for some "militant" quotes from a particular woman, but my t'internet skills are abit lacking. Can you help me?




Here's something to go on.....











I've read good things about her

senik said:

@ "militant"

ask me a question, and i'll give you a quote!

matt said:

You know I fucking love you, right?

"That's why I don't eat red meat or white fish
Or funky, funky bleu cheese."

~Prince, star of "Graffiti Bridge"

FunkMistress said:

Hands down, worst Prince musical moment EVER. I remember sitting my vegan self in a room with two vegan friends and listening to that. . .we should have been the most sympathetic possible audience, and we were laughing until we thought our middles were going to just break. OH, man.

tackam said:

See? It was a great musical moment. Laughing that hard wards off cancer.

matt said:

Do you feel that these people weren't qualified to speak on the subject? I think if Einstein says going veg. is the best thing we can do, I don't argue with that.
Great minds think alike and while maybe Penrose can't speak to the same subject that Hawking can in a technical matter, in something as broad as this I believe it's no coincidence all these people agree in the abstract.

conch5184 said:

Based upon the information you've presented....

Pythagoras, mathematician -- No

Leonardo da Vinci, artist and scientist -- No

Romain Rolland, author, Nobel Prize 1915 -- No (What subject(s) did he write about, and what was the basis for his Nobel Prize?)

George Bernard Shaw, playwright, Nobel Prize 1925 -- No (See my comment on Rolland.)

Jeremy Bentham, philosopher -- Yes

Isaac Bashevis Singer, author, Nobel Prize 1978 -- No (See my comment on Roland.)

Albert Einstein, physicist, Nobel Prize 1921 -- No (How is a physicist qualified to express an opinion on human health/nutrition?)

Abraham Lincoln, 16th U.S. President -- No

Ralph Waldo Emerson, essayist -- No (Yet another writer on some unspecified subject(s).)

Leo Tolstoy, author -- No (See my comment on Emerson. Also, "As long as there are slaughterhouses, there will be battlefields" is a non sequitur.)

Henry David Thoreau, author -- No (See my comment on Emerson.)

Mahatma Gandhi, statesman and philosopher -- Yes

Mark Twain, author -- No (See my comment on Emerson.)

Thomas Edison, inventor -- No



That's precisely the argumentum ad verecundiam fallacy. I fail to see how Einstein is any more qualified to express an opinion on the ethics and health aspects of using animals for food than, say, Prince (see the posts about "Animal Kingdom" earlier in this thread).



Argumentum ad numerum

This fallacy is closely related to the argumentum ad populum. It consists of asserting that the more people who support or believe a proposition, the more likely it is that that proposition is correct. For example:

"The vast majority of people in this country believe that capital punishment has a noticeable deterrent effect. To suggest that it doesn't in the face of so much evidence is ridiculous."

"All I'm saying is that thousands of people believe in pyramid power, so there must be something to it."

(Source: http://www.infidels.org/n...logic.html)

Or, another version of the argumentum ad numerum fallacy is the album 50,000,000 Elvis Fans Can't Be Wrong.

matt said:

I take the point you're making Matt. It's a really good one that I may steal at some point ( ).

Can it be applied in this case though? Many of the quotes are stated as personal beliefs rather than expert opinion, e.g.


He's not saying that he understands vivisection or is involved in it - all he's saying is that his personal beliefs are that the end doesn't justify the means.



Seems to me that Lincoln is as qualified to quote on what being a human is as any of the rest of us.



Gandi is emminently qualified to comment on matters on philosophy, as is this guy (ok, I don't know who he is but if he is a philosopher, then it's his job to think about such things) :



So, in this instance I'm not convinced that Argumentum ad verecundiam is relevant.

Reincarnate said:

I'd say it's very relevant. Why should I take Lincoln's, Einstein's, or Ghandi's word for it? Great people, yeah -but unless they're some sort of animal experts, their opinion is no more relevant than mine or yours.

tackam said:

Of course. You may disagree with some of my conclusions, but you recognize good philosophy when you see it.

meow85 said:

Why is it necessary that the people saying these things should be animal experts in order for us to listen to their opinions? They're talking as men, of society and of life. For example, "I am in favor of animal rights as well as human rights. That is the way of a whole human being." ... using your statement, who would you believe to be qualified to say such a thing? Surely the only requirement is that you're human and willing to express an opinion on animal welfare matters.

Still disagree that Argumentum ad verecundiam applies to most of these statements.

Reincarnate said:

Reincarnate said:

Every person is entitled to his or her own opinion on the use of animals for food, or any other issue. But if you want to convince me that I shouldn't eat animals, then you need to give me an argument that's both sound (i.e., all premises are true) and valid (i.e., the logical reasoning is proper). And an argument that involves the argumentum ad verecundiam fallacy is not valid, so I'll reject it.

matt said:

That sounded like it should go on the 'Words that sound like disease' Thread

matt said:

if you read Conch's original post, she mentioned posting this "for my fellow vegetarians", so her intent was not to convince meat-eaters.

i, for one, thoroughly enjoyed the sentiments and appreciate Conch's thread.

irresistibleb1tch said:

Point taken. But the text she posted was cut-and-pasted from a web page that apparently is intended to convince omnivores to change their ways, and I submit that it's fair to critique the argument.

matt said:

you crack me up, Matt.