FLUX said:

Nicely said...

teller said:

I'm not sure of this, though...this seems to indicate that you can make a "list" of sorts of qualities and characteristics that you feel must be present in order for love to exist...I don't believe that by finding someone who meets all the things on our list that love will automatically result. Attraction, sure...lust, most likely...but real, sincere, true love? That seems to occur without forethought, rules or any standard of measurement...things like "I love that she's so spiritual" or "I love that he's so creative" seem more a byproduct of love than the other way around. It would seem that, if the person never stopped being spiritual, creative, intelligent--whatever values you hold as love's "standard"--then the love felt would never lessen, would never dissipate...the longing for them would never go away. And if they became morespiritual, creative, what have you...then the level of love felt and the longing to be with them would intensify. But life tends to show us in one form or another that that's not the case...

The heart has a mind of its own...

teller said:

Your avatar is adorable...



.
[Edited 11/22/04 9:12am]

Byron said:

Disagree...the "heart" is how we experience the mind through the body. They are one. If they seem to be at odds sometimes, it is only because we have a conflict in the mind. And we may not explicitely seek out certain qualities, but we are attracted to them because we value them. Even in cases where it goes awry--such as women who are attracted to thugs--they're valuing some lost connection with their fathers or some other important figure they identify with. It's all connected.

Emotions = values as experienced directly in the body.

sag10 said:

teller said:

Um, you didn't disagree with me, though..lol

You basically said the same thing I did: that attraction and lust can definitely be felt/experienced when certain values are seen in another person...where I differed with you was in taking the stance that love--the type of love we discuss here as pertaining to your "greatest love" and it being one of two reasons we marry--is not merely due to a collection of qualities or "values" someone posesses...and that the "heart", when experiencing that type of love, is effected without needing certain conditions to be met first...

Byron said:

Right...but I'm saying those conditions really ARE met first, which is why we fall in love. Even if it's at first sight, there is an evaluation happening, if only subconscious at first. Of course those initial uninformed feelings are going to be inaccurate at times, but it's all value-related. It's not cupid's arrow.

lollyp0p said:

I'm all for eternal bliss and happiness and all the rest of the Hallmark emotions society has fooled most folks into falling for, but the reality of it all is that Marriage is a concept...which makes it yet another Man-made instiution of anything else man has ever had anything to do with...FLAWED! So we do marry out of love, or should anyway..and if you have that Love...then where does a contract come into play...and if marriage nothing more than an relationship in the first place...why do we "pay" to break up...and then again..why does the "government" give tax breaks and the like to married couples and make it easy to purchas property?...simple...Because it was created with nothing but the capitalistic capablilities in mind. Help support America's GNP!

It is never about Love in America...its about MONEY! Period!

DexMSR said:

I'm not in America and as far as i am aware the married couple tax allowance in the uk has been abolished if it wasn't i never got any of the benefit.

I think people are always looking for reasons to NOT commit maybe through fear i don't know

the money doesn't come into play for me, and you shouldn't think of the cost of disolving a marriage as marriage is SUPPOSED to be for life you know the words richer poorer blah blah blah. I think it's good there is cost to the splitting up of marriage, it makes it more of a decision on splitting up, if it was just a case of going to the local civil centre taking the licence in and saying you don't want to be married any more it's frightning to think how many relationships would have broken up that could have been saved with a little work.

I know not all relationships last forever and in my opinion to get married to more a sign of devotion and love to your partner and to your family and friends.

i just like the idea, but i can understand where your coming from.

I feel that if you are in a loving relationship and you have that pure, deep connection with your loved one...does a marriage really matter? To whom do these two people in love need to proove their love for? Or why is that symbol needed? The true symbol of love lies in your hearts and so the institution of marriage should not even be important. What is important is what these two people feel for one another. Not a ring, nor a piece of paper or the concept of "being a husband or wife" should matter. My man is already my man/partner/soulmate/buddy/lover/friend. I am already his "wife"/lover/friend/partner/soulmate. WE know this. So we feel there is no need to prove anything towards family, friends or aquaintances..nor to God. God knows how much we love each other.

billyjackbitch said:

Then the question still remains, why not get married? If it's true love and you have a good relationship you can only benefit from a marriage...right?

I lost my lucky ball & chain
Now she's four years gone
Just five feet tall and sick of me
And all my rattling on

She threw away her baby-doll
I held on to my pride
But I was young and foolish then
I feel old and foolish now

Confidentially --
she never called me baby-doll
Confidentially --
I never had much pride
But now I rock a bar stool
and I drink for two
just pondering this time bomb in my mind

I lost my lucky ball & chain
Now she's four years gone
Just five feet tall and sick of me
And all my rattling on

She walked away from a happy man
I thought I was so cool
I just stood there whistling
"There goes the bride" as she walked out the door
"There goes the bride" as she walked out the door

I could shake my tiny fist
and swear I wasn't wrong
But what's the sense in arguing
when you're all alone?
Sure as you can't steer a train
you can't change your fate
And when she told me off that day
I knew I'd lost my home

Confidentially --
I never told you of her charms
Confidentially --
we never had a home
But this railroad apartment
was the perfect place
when she'd sit and hold me in her arms

I lost my lucky ball & chain
Now she's four years gone
Just five feet tall and sick of me
And all my rattling on

She walked away from a happy man
I thought I was so cool
I just stood there whistling
"There goes the bride" as she walked out the door
"There goes the bride" as she walked out the door
"There goes the bride" as she walked out the door

"Lucky Ball and Chain" - They Might Be Giants

MrJoker said:

I love that song..lol Love the entire CD, actually...

Byron said:

Me too!

billyjackbitch said:

Marriage between two people like the ones you describe tends to be more ceremonial, though...they view it as a symbol of their commitment and of the life they're beginning together...they don't see marriage as validation of their relationship, or even as necessary. It's more a celebration of what they've formed, of the connection and desires they share...No, it doesn't have to be a traditional marriage, there are many types of ceremonies that can take place which honor and celebrate the union of two souls that don't involve government institutions or organized religions...they're more spiritual in nature.

Byron said:

I hear you Byron But the everyday living situation isn't to be ignored in my book. That kinda shit eats away @ you over time when you're constantly getting on each others nerves...

I agree with Byron, but also we are brought up to believe in marriage, and that it is the norm! the done thing to do when u find ur true love!! Dont get me wrong Im married, but had I been educated enough b4 then mabye we would have choosen a different way to celebrate and commit ourselves to one another..forever, and I will be sure to inform my daughter of her freedom of choice, and not at all give her any pressure to follow suit....

CalhounSq said:

I guess I see finding true love as being different than "falling in love"...all sorts of variables can make you feel like you've fallen in love, but only the most profound and deepest of feelings/connectons lead to the type of love I think is required to enter into marriage and guarantee it's health...

Think of it this way...imagine you just got hired for the perfect job for you...one that deals in an area that is your passion and obsession...the type of field that you'd gladly work in for free, even would pay someone to do this work...yet here you are, being paid (and paid well) to do what you love, something that makes time fly and literally makes you happy and eager to wake up and head into work...Wonderful company, great co-workers, and a boss who seems fair, intelligent and reasonable...

Now...if you were to find that type of job...would you REALLY fear taking that job because, well, the lunch hours aren't long enough??...Because the yearly raises aren't high enough...because the Xmas bonus isn't big enough??...Would you find yourself wanting to quit because the drive into work is too long??

The things you worry about are indeed valid...but they tend to only be valid when there's other, more important and profound things missing from the love and connection we have with the person we're thinking of committing to...Trust me, if you find that deep and real of a connection with someone, you won't be bothered one iota if they clip their toenails in the livingroom...lol...the things you fear will start to get on your nerves will no longer exist within your being...you'll realize just how little they really matter when you're within what you consider your "greatest love"...

Byron said:

Well Said Byron. I couldn't said any better myself.

Byron said:

VERY well put.

However--what if at this dream job, you cannot sit a normal chair, but must in fact impale your ass upon a sharp, pointy stick every morning. And further that, while you love the work, you must sacrifice an arm and both eyes in order to have it. And further, that they in fact do NOT pay you, but rather you must pay to do this job, and even then only if you agree to eat a spoon of mayonnaise every morning when you arrive. At some point the scales are tipped and you move on to a more sane, balanced life.

In other words, some of those most intense romantic relationships cannot work. (and damned if they didn't feel like that sharp pointy stick some days )

teller said:

What the hell kind of relationships have YOU been having??..lol

When the book coming out Byron ? Gonna have to get myself a copy, this is deep stuff !

FLUX said:

I'll send you a free autographed copy...

Interesting!

If you have to think about it this long and hard, the fact is that you ain't met the right person yet, so you shouldn't be thinking of getting married anyways.


"Love" doesn't make any sense, it's not reasonable or sensible. When you think too hard about it, it seems to >poof< into thin air.


Like I say, if you gotta ask, the answer's "no".

teller said:

. . Ow. . can't. . .breathe. . .

I hear ya, brother.


I feel like I should have something interesting to contribute to this thread, considering my unconventional relationships and the role that marriage has/does/will play in those, but I'm finding it tough. People have said a lot of interesting things, and I agree with a lot of it, even where it conflicts.

JoweeCoco said:

What benefit is there that puts MORE value on the relationship? And I thought this forum was about "Why we marry?" and not "Why we don't get married"?

I totally respect other people's opinions. What strikes me is that people who obviously see the added value of the institution of marriage, feel that people who don't see the added value are afraid to commit. I guess everybody has their own opinion about it...so let's agree to disagree. For the people who do like to be married, I wish for them the best as a married couple. For the people who don't like to be married, I wish for the the best as a not-married couple. Love is still ove. Nomatter what tag you want to put on it. You're partners, or husband and wife. Fact remains: you love each other. And isn't that one of the most important values in a relationship? (next to respect, trust etc etc...)

Byron said:

I hear what you're saying and I see your point, but then why not celebrate that you've been in love and together for 25 years and hope for it to last for another 25 years in good health? That is what I find so fascinating too... People spend thousands of dollars on their weddingday. But never that much on their 25th anniversary. I guess 25 years of being together in good and less good times counts for a big celebration AGain,.. in my humble opinion...I just see so many people spending such extravagant amounts of money and then don't even last a year into the marriage. Often I think: "is it the lady, who's been dreaming of this fairytale-day,... finally thought she found prince charming... and then after that one incredible extraordinary day,..whe wakes up a few months later and finds herself wondering why she isn't getting the flowers from her prince charming anymore...and that life in fact is just what you make of it, and not that fairy tale. I guess perhaps I don't see the point in the WEDDING. The ceremony... why is it we need a ceremony to "celebrate" we start life together? Where were we before the ceremony then? in an "unstarted" life? Is it now "real?" I just don't get it. It started the minute your heart skipped when you first saw him... (or her) and for as long as you feel the love for the other.

billyjackbitch said:

I don't think I disagree with you too much.. I'm gonna be riduculed for saying this (and Sweeny's gonna revoke my "Best Friend" status..lol), but you know that scene in the "Call My Name" video towards the end, where a young couple are taking part in some ceremony outdoors, both dressed in sparkling white??...

To me, that's romantic.....It came across as more sincere and spiritual, and made me think I'd love taking part in a ceremony that was less traditional and celebrated my connection both with the woman I loved and with nature. While I wouldn't be doing backflips like they are in the video (lol), I still thought the idea of a ceremony such as that one to celebrate the beginning of a life together seemed beautiful.

Byron said:

I ain't revokin' shit, but I am gonna roll my eyes at ya!

( and quietly agree with you )