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Printablemdiver said: Ace said: Myself, I cannot be sure of anything in a universe where people vote for George Bush. co-sign  | |
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I can see the universe in a grain of sand..or something like that  | |
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Lleena said: I can see the universe in a grain of sand..or something like that
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Lleena said: I can see the universe in a grain of sand..or something like that
Can you hear it in a seashell? ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^
Being happy doesn't mean that everything is perfect, it means you've decided to look beyond the imperfections... unknown | |
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Cogito Ergo Sum. I think, therefore I am. - Rene Descartes
CARTESIAN, adj. Relating to Descartes, a famous philosopher, author of the celebrated dictum, *Cogito ergo sum* -- whereby he was pleased to suppose he demonstrated the reality of human existence. The dictum might be improved, however, thus: *Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum* -- "I think that I think, therefore I think that I am;" as close an approach to certainty as any philosopher has yet made. - Ambrose Bierce The philosopher Descartes believed that he had found the most fundamental truth when he made his famous statement: "I think, therefore I am." He had, in fact, given expression to the most basic error: to equate thinking with Being and identity with thinking. - Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now, 1999 Descartes was wrong when he said ... I think, therefore I am. It is never bare thought or bare existence that we are aware of. I find myself rather as essentially a unity of emotions, of enjoyment of hopes, of fears, of regrets, evaluations of alternatives, decisions - all of these are subjective reactions to my environment as I am active in my nature. My unity which is Descartes I am is my process of shaping this welter of material into a consistent pattern of feelings. - Alfred North Whitehead [FROM DISCOURSE ON METHOD] "I HAD long since remarked that in matters of conduct it is necessary sometimes to follow opinions known to be uncertain, as if they were not subject to doubt; but, because now I was desirous to devote myself to the search after truth, I considered that I must do just the contrary, and reject as absolutely false every-thing concerning which I could imagine the least doubt to exist. Thus, because our senses sometimes deceive us, I would suppose that nothing is such as they make us to imagine it; and because I was as likely to err as another in reasoning, I rejected as false all the reasons which I had formerly accepted as demonstrative; and finally, considering that all the thoughts we have when awake can come to us also when we sleep without any of them being true, I resolved to feign that everything which had ever entered my mind was no more truth than the illusion of my dreams. But I observed that, while I was thus resolved to feign that everything was false, I who thought must of necessity be somewhat; and remarking this truth--I think, therefore I am--was so firm and so assured that all the most extravagant suppositions of the sceptics were unable to shake it, I judged that I could unhesitatingly accept it as the first principle of the philosophy I was seeking. I could feign that there was no world, I could not feign that I did not exist. And I judged that I might take it as a general rule that the things which we conceive very clearly and very distinctly are all true, and that the only difficulty lies in the way of discerning which those things are that we conceive distinctly. After this, reflecting upon the fact that I doubted, and that consequently my being was not quite perfected (for I saw that to know is a greater perfection than to doubt), I bethought me to inquire whence I had learnt to think of something more perfect than myself; and it was clear to me that this must come from some nature which was in fact more perfect. For other things I could regard as dependencies of my nature if they were real, and if they were not real they might proceed from nothing--that is to say, they might exist in me by way of defect. But it could not be the same with the idea of a being more perfect than my own; for to derive it from nothing was manifestly impossible; and because it is no less repugnant that the more perfect should follow and depend upon the less perfect than that something should come forth out of nothing. I could not derive it from myself. It remained, then, to conclude that it was put into me by a nature truly more perfect than was I and possessing in itself all the perfections of what I could form an idea--in a word, by God. To which I added that, since I knew some perfections which I did not possess, I was not the only being who existed, but that there must of necessity be some other being, more perfect, on whom I depended, and from whom I had acquired all that I possessed; for if I had existed alone and independent of all other, so that I had of myself all this little whereby I participated in the Perfect Being, I should have been able to have in myself all those other qualities which I knew myself to lack, and so to be infinite, eternal, immutable, omniscient, almighty--in fine, to possess all the perfections which I could observe in God. PROPOSING to myself the geometer's subject matter, and then turning again to examine my idea of a Perfect Being, I found that existence was comprehended in that idea just as in the idea of a triangle is comprehended the notion that the sum of its angles is equal to two right angles; and that consequently it is as certain that God, this Perfect Being is or exists, as any geometrical demonstration could be. That there are many who persuade themselves that there is a difficulty in knowing Him is due to the scholastic maxim that there is nothing in the understanding which has not first been in the senses; where the ideas of God and the soul have never been. Than the existence of God all other things, even those which it seems to a man extravagant to doubt, such as his having a body, are less certain. Nor is there any reason sufficient to remove such doubt but such as presupposes the existence of God. From His existence it follows that our ideas or notions, being real things, and coming from God, cannot but be true in so far as they are clear and distinct. In so far as they contain falsity, they are confused and obscure, there is in them an element of mere negation (elles participent du neant); that is to say, they are thus confused in us because we ourselves are not all perfect. And it is evident that falsity or imperfection can no more come forth from God than can perfection proceed from nothingness. But, did we not know that all which is in us of the real and the true comes from a perfect and infinite being, however clear and distinct our ideas might be, we should have no reason for assurance that they possessed the final perfection--truth. Reason instructs us that all our ideas must have some foundation of truth, for it could not be that the All-Perfect and the All-True should otherwise have put them into us; and because our reasonings are never so evident or so complete when we sleep as when we wake, although sometimes during sleep our imagination may be more vivid and positive, it also instructs us that such truth as our thoughts have will be in our waking thoughts rather than in our dreams. [WHY I DO NOT PUBLISH 'THE WORLD'] I HAVE always remained firm in my resolve to assume no other principle than that which I have used to demonstrate the existence of God and of the soul, and to receive nothing which did not seem to me clearer and more certain than the demonstrations of the philosophers had seemed before; yet not only have I found means of satisfying myself with regard to the principal difficulties which are usually treated of in philosophy, but also I have remarked certain laws which God has so established in nature, and of which He has implanted such notions in our souls, that we cannot doubt that they are observed in all which happens in the world. The principal truths which flow from these I have tried to unfold in a treatise (On the World, or on Light), which certain considerations prevent me from publishing. This I concluded three years ago, and had begun to revise it for the printer, when I learnt that certain persons to whom I defer had disapproved an opinion on physics published a short time before by a certain person (Galileo, condemned by the Roman Inquisition in 1633), in which opinion I had noticed nothing prejudicial to religion; and this made me fear that there might be some among my opinions in which I was mistaken. I now believe that I ought to continue to write all the things which I judge of importance, but ought in no wise to consent to their publication during my life. For my experience of the objections which might be made forbids me to hope for any profit from them. I have tried both friends and enemies, yet it has seldom happened that they have offered any objection which I had not in some measure foreseen; so that I have never, I may say, found a critic who did not seem to be either less rigorous or less fair-minded than myself. Whereupon I gladly take this opportunity to beg those who shall come after us never to believe that the things which they are told come from me unless I have divulged them myself; and I am in nowise astonished at the extravagances attributed to those old philosophers whose writings have not come down to us. They were the greatest minds of their time, but have been ill reported. Why, I am sure that the most devoted of those who now follow Aristotle would esteem themselves happy if they had as much knowledge of nature as he had, even on the condition that they should never have more! They are like ivy, which never mounts higher than the trees which support it, and which even comes down again after it has attained their summit. So at least, it seems to me, do they who, not content with knowing all that is explained by their author, would find in him the solution also of many difficulties of which he says nothing, and of which, perhaps, he never thought. Yet their method of philosophising is very convenient for those who have but middling minds, for the obscurity of the distinctions and principles which they employ enables them to speak of all things as boldly as if they had knowledge of them, and sustain all they have to say against the most subtle and skilful without there being any means of convincing them; wherein they seem to me like a blind man who, in order to fight on equal terms with a man who has his sight, invites him into the depths of a cavern. And I may say that it is to their interest that I should abstain from publishing the principles of the philosophy which I employ, for so simple and so evident are they that to publish them would be like opening windows into their caverns and letting in the day. But if they prefer acquaintance with a little truth, and desire to follow a plan like mine, there is no need for me to say to them any more in this discourse than I have already said. For if they are capable of passing beyond what I have done, much rather will they be able to discover for themselves whatever I believe myself to have found out; besides which, the practice which they will acquire in seeking out easy things and thence passing to others which are more difficult, will stead them better than all my instructions. But if some of the matters spoken about at the beginning of the Dioptrics and the Meteors [published with the Discourse on Method] should at first give offence because I have called them 'suppositions,' and have shown no desire to prove them, let the reader have patience to read the whole attentively, and I have hope that he will be satisfied. The time remaining to me I have resolved to employ in trying to acquire some knowledge of nature, such that we may be able to draw from it more certain rules for medicine than those which we possess. And I hereby declare that I shall always hold myself more obliged to those by whose favour I enjoy my leisure undisturbed than I should be to any who should offer me the most esteemed employments in the world." Is there any place of refuge one can flee from this insanity | |
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lol | |
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sag10 said: Lleena said: I can see the universe in a grain of sand..or something like that
Can you hear it in a seashell?  | |
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Ace said: How do you know your life is not a hallucination? And does it bother you that the universe is infinite?
You know what? that thought scares me...I saw "A Beautiful Mind" for the first time the other night and there's a line in it where the doctor says something like "imagine finding out some of the closest people to you and biggest events never really took place but were in your mind...imagine what kind of hell that would be" that really stuck with me  | |
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Ace said: applekisses said:  I am the only person in the world who hasn't seen this flick, but I do have some idea of what it's about. Let's say our reality is a hallucination and we are really imprisoned by machines (I think that's what The Matrix is about, right?), how do you know that the reality in which you realize you are imprisoned by a machine is not, in itself, a hallucination? And what about the whole universe-being-infinite thing? Yes, that's what it's about  and speaking to the hallucination issue...I suppose that for many people it wouldn't matter because they spend their lives with their heads in the sand anyway (e.g. people that voted for Bush) and for others...well...I suppose we end up creating the reality we feel more comfortable in...perhaps that is reality.
The universe being infinite...  it blows my mind in the best possible way...it proves to me that all things are possible. I love it | |
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Ace said: sag10 said: If there is no life, then there is no time... Why worry. No worries here. It's just that if this is a hallucination, I'd rather just get some shut-eye. Ya know what I'm sayin'? That said...well, I guess it's more important to boil life down to the most essential...that's what I try to do anyway. Keep things simple...cut out the bullshit..."peel it" and look at what's inside...  | |
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MarySharon said: Cogito Ergo Sum. I think, therefore I am. - Rene Descartes
CARTESIAN, adj. Relating to Descartes, a famous philosopher, author of the celebrated dictum, *Cogito ergo sum* -- whereby he was pleased to suppose he demonstrated the reality of human existence. The dictum might be improved, however, thus: *Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum* -- "I think that I think, therefore I think that I am;" as close an approach to certainty as any philosopher has yet made. - Ambrose Bierce The philosopher Descartes believed that he had found the most fundamental truth when he made his famous statement: "I think, therefore I am." He had, in fact, given expression to the most basic error: to equate thinking with Being and identity with thinking. - Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now, 1999 Descartes was wrong when he said ... I think, therefore I am. It is never bare thought or bare existence that we are aware of. I find myself rather as essentially a unity of emotions, of enjoyment of hopes, of fears, of regrets, evaluations of alternatives, decisions - all of these are subjective reactions to my environment as I am active in my nature. My unity which is Descartes I am is my process of shaping this welter of material into a consistent pattern of feelings. - Alfred North Whitehead [FROM DISCOURSE ON METHOD] "I HAD long since remarked that in matters of conduct it is necessary sometimes to follow opinions known to be uncertain, as if they were not subject to doubt; but, because now I was desirous to devote myself to the search after truth, I considered that I must do just the contrary, and reject as absolutely false every-thing concerning which I could imagine the least doubt to exist. Thus, because our senses sometimes deceive us, I would suppose that nothing is such as they make us to imagine it; and because I was as likely to err as another in reasoning, I rejected as false all the reasons which I had formerly accepted as demonstrative; and finally, considering that all the thoughts we have when awake can come to us also when we sleep without any of them being true, I resolved to feign that everything which had ever entered my mind was no more truth than the illusion of my dreams. But I observed that, while I was thus resolved to feign that everything was false, I who thought must of necessity be somewhat; and remarking this truth--I think, therefore I am--was so firm and so assured that all the most extravagant suppositions of the sceptics were unable to shake it, I judged that I could unhesitatingly accept it as the first principle of the philosophy I was seeking. I could feign that there was no world, I could not feign that I did not exist. And I judged that I might take it as a general rule that the things which we conceive very clearly and very distinctly are all true, and that the only difficulty lies in the way of discerning which those things are that we conceive distinctly. After this, reflecting upon the fact that I doubted, and that consequently my being was not quite perfected (for I saw that to know is a greater perfection than to doubt), I bethought me to inquire whence I had learnt to think of something more perfect than myself; and it was clear to me that this must come from some nature which was in fact more perfect. For other things I could regard as dependencies of my nature if they were real, and if they were not real they might proceed from nothing--that is to say, they might exist in me by way of defect. But it could not be the same with the idea of a being more perfect than my own; for to derive it from nothing was manifestly impossible; and because it is no less repugnant that the more perfect should follow and depend upon the less perfect than that something should come forth out of nothing. I could not derive it from myself. It remained, then, to conclude that it was put into me by a nature truly more perfect than was I and possessing in itself all the perfections of what I could form an idea--in a word, by God. To which I added that, since I knew some perfections which I did not possess, I was not the only being who existed, but that there must of necessity be some other being, more perfect, on whom I depended, and from whom I had acquired all that I possessed; for if I had existed alone and independent of all other, so that I had of myself all this little whereby I participated in the Perfect Being, I should have been able to have in myself all those other qualities which I knew myself to lack, and so to be infinite, eternal, immutable, omniscient, almighty--in fine, to possess all the perfections which I could observe in God. PROPOSING to myself the geometer's subject matter, and then turning again to examine my idea of a Perfect Being, I found that existence was comprehended in that idea just as in the idea of a triangle is comprehended the notion that the sum of its angles is equal to two right angles; and that consequently it is as certain that God, this Perfect Being is or exists, as any geometrical demonstration could be. That there are many who persuade themselves that there is a difficulty in knowing Him is due to the scholastic maxim that there is nothing in the understanding which has not first been in the senses; where the ideas of God and the soul have never been. Than the existence of God all other things, even those which it seems to a man extravagant to doubt, such as his having a body, are less certain. Nor is there any reason sufficient to remove such doubt but such as presupposes the existence of God. From His existence it follows that our ideas or notions, being real things, and coming from God, cannot but be true in so far as they are clear and distinct. In so far as they contain falsity, they are confused and obscure, there is in them an element of mere negation (elles participent du neant); that is to say, they are thus confused in us because we ourselves are not all perfect. And it is evident that falsity or imperfection can no more come forth from God than can perfection proceed from nothingness. But, did we not know that all which is in us of the real and the true comes from a perfect and infinite being, however clear and distinct our ideas might be, we should have no reason for assurance that they possessed the final perfection--truth. Reason instructs us that all our ideas must have some foundation of truth, for it could not be that the All-Perfect and the All-True should otherwise have put them into us; and because our reasonings are never so evident or so complete when we sleep as when we wake, although sometimes during sleep our imagination may be more vivid and positive, it also instructs us that such truth as our thoughts have will be in our waking thoughts rather than in our dreams. [WHY I DO NOT PUBLISH 'THE WORLD'] I HAVE always remained firm in my resolve to assume no other principle than that which I have used to demonstrate the existence of God and of the soul, and to receive nothing which did not seem to me clearer and more certain than the demonstrations of the philosophers had seemed before; yet not only have I found means of satisfying myself with regard to the principal difficulties which are usually treated of in philosophy, but also I have remarked certain laws which God has so established in nature, and of which He has implanted such notions in our souls, that we cannot doubt that they are observed in all which happens in the world. The principal truths which flow from these I have tried to unfold in a treatise (On the World, or on Light), which certain considerations prevent me from publishing. This I concluded three years ago, and had begun to revise it for the printer, when I learnt that certain persons to whom I defer had disapproved an opinion on physics published a short time before by a certain person (Galileo, condemned by the Roman Inquisition in 1633), in which opinion I had noticed nothing prejudicial to religion; and this made me fear that there might be some among my opinions in which I was mistaken. I now believe that I ought to continue to write all the things which I judge of importance, but ought in no wise to consent to their publication during my life. For my experience of the objections which might be made forbids me to hope for any profit from them. I have tried both friends and enemies, yet it has seldom happened that they have offered any objection which I had not in some measure foreseen; so that I have never, I may say, found a critic who did not seem to be either less rigorous or less fair-minded than myself. Whereupon I gladly take this opportunity to beg those who shall come after us never to believe that the things which they are told come from me unless I have divulged them myself; and I am in nowise astonished at the extravagances attributed to those old philosophers whose writings have not come down to us. They were the greatest minds of their time, but have been ill reported. Why, I am sure that the most devoted of those who now follow Aristotle would esteem themselves happy if they had as much knowledge of nature as he had, even on the condition that they should never have more! They are like ivy, which never mounts higher than the trees which support it, and which even comes down again after it has attained their summit. So at least, it seems to me, do they who, not content with knowing all that is explained by their author, would find in him the solution also of many difficulties of which he says nothing, and of which, perhaps, he never thought. Yet their method of philosophising is very convenient for those who have but middling minds, for the obscurity of the distinctions and principles which they employ enables them to speak of all things as boldly as if they had knowledge of them, and sustain all they have to say against the most subtle and skilful without there being any means of convincing them; wherein they seem to me like a blind man who, in order to fight on equal terms with a man who has his sight, invites him into the depths of a cavern. And I may say that it is to their interest that I should abstain from publishing the principles of the philosophy which I employ, for so simple and so evident are they that to publish them would be like opening windows into their caverns and letting in the day. But if they prefer acquaintance with a little truth, and desire to follow a plan like mine, there is no need for me to say to them any more in this discourse than I have already said. For if they are capable of passing beyond what I have done, much rather will they be able to discover for themselves whatever I believe myself to have found out; besides which, the practice which they will acquire in seeking out easy things and thence passing to others which are more difficult, will stead them better than all my instructions. But if some of the matters spoken about at the beginning of the Dioptrics and the Meteors [published with the Discourse on Method] should at first give offence because I have called them 'suppositions,' and have shown no desire to prove them, let the reader have patience to read the whole attentively, and I have hope that he will be satisfied. The time remaining to me I have resolved to employ in trying to acquire some knowledge of nature, such that we may be able to draw from it more certain rules for medicine than those which we possess. And I hereby declare that I shall always hold myself more obliged to those by whose favour I enjoy my leisure undisturbed than I should be to any who should offer me the most esteemed employments in the world." Yadda, yadda, yadda... The above and the rest of your existence is still a hallucination (whatever that means). |
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Natisse said: Ace said: How do you know your life is not a hallucination? And does it bother you that the universe is infinite?
You know what? that thought scares me...I saw "A Beautiful Mind" for the first time the other night and there's a line in it where the doctor says something like "imagine finding out some of the closest people to you and biggest events never really took place but were in your mind...imagine what kind of hell that would be" that really stuck with me  Don't worry, I'm here for you (even if I don't exist). |
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applekisses said: and speaking to the hallucination issue...I suppose that for many people it wouldn't matter because they spend their lives with their heads in the sand anyway (e.g. people that voted for Bush)
 ...Wait a minute...  |
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applekisses said: That said...well, I guess it's more important to boil life down to the most essential...that's what I try to do anyway. Keep things simple...cut out the bullshit..."peel it" and look at what's inside...
A woman after my own heart!  |
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i had the weirdest hallucination last night
i thought i was sleeping then i wasnt then i was then i wasnt what a trip !! | |
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well,being i have astral projected since the age of 2 ive seen places ( no shit really) the 4th dimension plane does xist,this is just another level of existance.but a lower level. believe me there is something much higher than this plane.
betcha nowwwww u think im KooKoo | |
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TheRealFiness said: well,being i have astral projected since the age of 2 ive seen places ( no shit really) the 4th dimension plane does xist,this is just another level of existance.but a lower level. believe me there is something much higher than this plane.
betcha nowwwww u think im KooKoo NO... we have talked about this before and I think it is out of sight... you get it... out of sight.  Now I am going to crack myself up...
Us will get along beautifully. | |
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Ace said: How do you know your life is not a hallucination? And does it bother you that the universe is infinite?
Answer: faith ... we each have a purpose The size of the universe does not bother me. It was created as a vehicle for us and is as large or as small as it needs to be. | |
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Reincarnate said: Answer: faith ... we each have a purpose
The size of the universe does not bother me. It was created as a vehicle for us and is as large or as small as it needs to be. If it exists. |
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"Interestingly, according to modern astronomers, space is finite. This is a very comforting thought - particularly for people who cannot remember where they left things." - Woody Allen |
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'Space is infinite? Don't be crazy. Surely at some point there must be a wall, or something.'
"You know who has these thoughts all the time? Schultz the tailor. He thinks that nothing is real at all and that everything exists only in the dream of a dog." - Woody Allen |
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Ace said: applekisses said: That said...well, I guess it's more important to boil life down to the most essential...that's what I try to do anyway. Keep things simple...cut out the bullshit..."peel it" and look at what's inside...
A woman after my own heart! Yep...the truth...spoken from my own "ho lips" | |
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applekisses said: Ace said: A woman after my own heart! Yep...the truth...spoken from my own "ho lips" You don't have ho-lips. Angelina Jolie has ho-lips. |
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If lips existed. |
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Ace said: If lips existed.
Well...lips exist...I don't think "ho lips" do, though. What's the difference between Angelina's "ho lips" and my non-ho lips? (this is getting silly, but I still wanna know ) | |
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  So, ehm live is a banana?
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applekisses said:[quote] Ace said: Well...lips exist...
Says you. I don't think "ho lips" do, though. What's the difference between Angelina's "ho lips" and my non-ho lips?
Volume, volume, volume. |
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Ace said:[quote] applekisses said: Says you. I don't think "ho lips" do, though. What's the difference between Angelina's "ho lips" and my non-ho lips?
Volume, volume, volume.  | |
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I appreciate infinite awareness...
The universe intrigues me... at times I want to fall off the face of this world... and feel the freefall of it forever... If life is hallucination... I am enjoying the ride while it lasts. ... | |
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