SassierBritches said:

case closed.

Are you people saying i should be against abortion ?
Still don't see the paradox !
[Edited 10/20/04 22:45pm]

Chico1 said:

whatchutalkin'boutwillis?

:

Dewrede said:

Dewrede said:

on one hand you're saying its sick to kill an animal for sustenance. on the other hand you're saying its ok to kill a human baby. i don't know how to reconcile that.

SassierBritches said:

I'm not...I think it's every womans individual choice definately pro-choice!

SassierBritches said:

Ummm I concur..because of the unjust argument for the people....and furthermore I find the defandant guilty. So I sustain and stuff! Call your next witness.

Chico1 said:

you kill me, chico, baby!

.
[Edited 10/20/04 22:49pm]

Dewrede said:

Don't eat meat! Your murdering innocent animal lives! Oh, by the way, let's kill all those unborn fetuses we don't want around.

Hence the paradox.

ok...well, trying to wrap my head around that just made me real sleepy. i'm gonna go to bed and try to think of ways to understand the lack of justification for killing animals and the total justification to choosing to kill humans.

now its my turn...

SassierBritches said:

whatchutalkin'boutcounselor?

I'm down with the People's Court and chit.
It also would be rather sad if I had watched "Body Of Evidence" a million times
and not aquired any knowledge of the judicial system.


The People vs. The Org.
Meat vs. Fetus....ok that just sounds gross.


carry on.

Nice to see my edited question replied too


There's a big difference between a fully grown animal bred to be killed
and an underdevelopped fetes that isn't a human being yet
[Edited 10/20/04 23:01pm]

I usually don't get involved in threads like this cause....well for me it's a bit pointless just a reason to argue, because everyone will have their points and views on the subject.

Now with that said and because im bored I will add my 2 cents to this
topic....First the whole "meat is murder" thing....by the
standards you list we "murder" all the time...Every insect you
step on and don't know about is murder...ever cut the grass?
Murder....plants are alive and to murder is to kill a living thing
correct? So by that account you and everyone alive are murderers...And that is when our "Human ablility" to say and change the rules to fit us and our needs kicks in....So killing plants is "different" cause they can't feel....or don't bleed or scream and such...same with insects. First and foremost REGARDLESS
of how "advanced" we are as a species we are still just mammals and animals ourself... Our world was created to work in a cycle....In a forest if owls don't kill and hunt mice then the mice grow and overpopulate the forrest and to live the mice eat something perhaps an insect needs to eat....Then the insects dies out and the birds die or leave cause the insect they used to feed on is no more and so on and so on.

We are no different.....Are you going to tell starving people in 3rd world countries "Hey you killing that pig is murder! Go eat that leaf there instead..." They would and should throw a spear, rock or whatever weapon they use to kill the pig at whoever says that to them. This world was made to give all species at some point or another something to eat, drink and live off of...just because we have slightly more rational thought than another animal does not make eating them to survive barbaric or cruel. And if you are disturbed by seeing animals killed to make food sorry but that is the real world. This ain't Disney....There is no "nice" way to gut an animal. Im not saying it's ok to hunt for sport (unless you plan on eating what you kill) or nothing like that. If you need to kill a bear because you use its skin for warmth in the winter then do what you got to do, but if you need a new rug or some shit that is just foul. (more opinion)


And why are some so concerned with meat,veggies and proteins and such? Cause of death....People fear an early death so they do what they can to avoid it...they assume that if they don't eat meat they won't die as fast and live twice as long as the next guy. Why? cause some other person did it and look at them! Not everyone's body reacts the same and not everyone wants to live forever....Some like to enjoy life and part of that enjoyment is eating (hopefully in moderation) what they like and how they like...Not saying people who don't eat meat are miserable because they don't, but no one should force ANYTHING on someone else...If they want to know they will seek it out, if they don't then leave it be. But death is the reason for all the scary "This will kill you and that causes cancer and that will kill you" crap you see all over the media and from other peoples mouth. I got a little secret....

YOUR ALL GOING TO DIE....yes eventually sooner or later....die...regardless of diet, beliefs, or sexual preference your going to die. So like I said arguing for me is pointless, over discussing a topic is pointless...Im bored and I felt like writing so I write this I usually don't like to get involved with threads of this nature I just read them. But this argument I have heard over and over and I wanted to add my opinion

Maybe i should say eating meat is cannibalism , since cows and pigs (for insatance) are mammals like us humans
[Edited 10/20/04 23:09pm]

Dewrede said:

It's not about cannibalism or anything like that it's about we humans need to eat living things to survive....don't trip on one thing and excuse another because the other is less offensive to you. The begining and end result is the same in both cases: You kill something, you prepare it, you eat it, you live. Plain and simple....you don't like the process that is fine...many who eat meat don't want to see how cows or animals are killed, but there is nothing wrong with eating or not eating meat. If someday a scientist makes a plant that can speak and communicate and it says "Hey don't eat my brother plants" Are you going to let yourself starve? What will you eat then? The world is a system...in that system we have ways to survive it is the way things are designed there is no "right or wrong way"

The only thing us being more advanced than other species grants us is the ability to choose our ways of survival....you eating just veggies is no more wrong or right than someone eating meat.

Humans are more related to cows than to carrots
[Edited 10/20/04 23:18pm]

Dewrede said:

"Carrot Juice is Murder" -- The Arrogant Worms

Listen up brothers and sisters come hear my desperate tale
I speak of our friends of nature trapped in the dirt like a jail
Vegetables live in oppression, served on our tables each night
This killing of veggies is madness, I say we take up the fight
Salads are only for murderers, coleslaw's a fascist regime
Don't think that they don't have feelings, just cause a radish can't scream

Chorus:
I've heard the screams of the vegetables (scream, scream, scream)
Watching their skins being peeled (having their insides revealed)
Grated and steamed with no mercy (burning off calories)
How do you think that feels (bet it hurts really bad)
Carrot juice constitutes murder (and that's a real crime)
Greenhouses prisons for slaves (let my vegetables go)
It's time to stop all this gardening (it's dirty as hell)
Let's call a spade a spade (is a spade is a spade is a spade)

I saw a man eating celery, so I beat him black and blue
If he ever touches a sprout again, I'll bite him clean in two
I'm a political prisoner, trapped in a windowless cage
Cause I stopped the slaughter of turnips by killing five men in a rage
I told the judge when he sentenced me, "This is my finest hour,
I'd kill those farmers again just to save one more cauliflower"

Chorus

How low as people do we dare to stoop,
Making young broccolis bleed in the soup?
Untie your beans, uncage your tomatoes
Let potted plants free, don't mash that potato!

I've heard the screams of the vegetables (scream, scream, scream)
Watching their skins being peeled (fates in the stir-fry are sealed)
Grated and steamed with no mercy (you fat gourmet slob)
How do you think that feels? (leave them out in the field)
Carrot juice constitutes murder (V8's genocide)
Greenhouses prisons for slaves (yes, your composts are graves)
It's time to stop all this gardening (take up macrame)
Let's call a spade a spade
(is a spade, is a spade, is a spade, is a spade.....)

All we are saying.... Is Give Peas a Chance
[Edited 10/20/04 23:24pm]

Dewrede said:

So this is more about genetics then? Again you will have your thoughts and beliefs on the subject...im not trying to convince you of anything, just simply throwing my opinions out there, any more is just arguing and pointless debate...i respect you and your choices so I will leave it at that.

savoirfaire said:[quote]

Dewrede said:

"Carrot Juice is Murder" -- The Arrogant Worms

Funny , you can hear the song on line by typing the title at google and clicking the 2nd link

Dewrede said:[quote]

savoirfaire said:

Cool! Glad you got the chance to hear it!

GOOD GREEF.....
Now I am frickin hungry!!

But now I dont know what to eat....maybe I will go out and graze in the yard just to be safe:-D

Dewrede said:

Should have read the whole thread edit
[Edited 10/21/04 0:28am]

Dewrede said:

You are right there is a massive difference, animals are animals and humans are humans, we can not differentiate (sp) with any argument that there are degrees of this. As I am sure you will agree as a vegetarian who believe meat is murder- killing a fish or chicken is the same a killing a whale or an elephant so the same is true of people, the sanctity of life should be important.

Food!

I don't eat anything I wouldn't be prepared to kill myself.

I know it's hypocritical but I just found a completely vegetarian diet hard to stick to.

I eat fish and chicken but no red meat. Even saying that I'd be prepared to kill a fish or a chicken is a little contentious I suppose. I could bash a chicken or a fish on the head if I was stranded on a desert island but I'd probably have nightmares about it for the rest of my life.

It is wrong - I know it's wrong.

SassierBritches said:

She may have simply been following the party line. Vegetarians and vegans are usually left-wing, and being pro-choice is a left-wing position.

However, I believe it's possible to reconcile the two. Here's my take on it in a nutshell:

The issue isn't "life." It's suffering. The fruitarians aside, I'm not aware of any vegan objecting to the killing and eating of a carrot that was once alive.

I don't see any ethical problem with aborting an early-stage fetus, when it's incapable of suffering. Late-term abortions IMHO are ethically problematic... it depends upon the reason why the mother waited so long to abort. And in any event, whether abortion is ethical is a different question from whether it should be legal.

BTW, pro-life vegetarians/vegans are out there, and they usually make the same argument that you made... they just seem to be relatively few in number.

sinister said:

I try to respect someone's beliefs even if I don't practice what they choose to live by.

Any extreme in the "eat meat" or "don't eat meat" argument makes me nauseous.

If I want to know, I'll ask.

Thanks for the concern though folks.