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PrintableInspectorGadget said: Try eating a raw potato and see what happens. I love raw potato!!  (washed and peeled, of course  ) | |
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irresistibleb1tch said: you can get 100% of your nutritional requirements by eating a balanced vegetarian or vegan diet.
On paper, yes. Unfortunately, that's cold comfort to people such as myself who don't feel well on vegetarian/vegan diets. My long-term experiment with vegetarianism (and later veganism) led to my health slowly becoming worse and worse. My weight fell to as low as 109 pounds, which is borderline dangerous for a 5'8" adult male. I finally threw in the towel when my essentially vegan partner asked me to stop, because she saw what I was doing to my health. I reintroduced a limited amount of animal products back into my diet, and my health slowly improved. Today I'm at a healthy 130 pounds. My health is monitored very closely because I'm participating in a clinical study, and I seem to be in excellent health. Vegan Outreach is, to my knowledge, the only vegetarian/vegan advocacy group to acknowledge the problem seriously ("During my years of outreach, I have been told by many people that they tried to be vegetarian or vegan, but hadn't felt healthy. I found this troubling. How can we prevent animal suffering by promoting a vegan diet for our society if some people do not respond well to it? Finding an answer to this problem was a major motivation for my becoming a Registered Dietitian."). Unfortunately, their discussion of the issue is unsound because it assumes that anyone who has trouble on a vegan diet isn't doing it properly. People who know me will tell you that when I do something, I take it very seriously. I did a lot of research with credible information and enlisted the help of a vegan-friendly doctor. I truly don't know what I could have done better, in terms of diet, during my vegetarian/vegan experiment. Some people seem to do well on a vegetarian/vegan diet. If they're doing it for altruistic reasons, that's admirable. But for those of us who can't do it and be healthy, well, I reject the notion that I'm ethically obligated to sacrifice my own health for the sake of others. Beyond Vegetarianism is an excellent resource for those willing to look at the potential problems with vegetarianism and veganism. And no, it's not a front for the beef industry... the site owner, Tom Billings, "is lacto-vegetarian (includes some raw dairy), 75-90% raw." Please note: effective March 21, 2010, I've stepped down from my prince.org Moderator position. |
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moderatorNatisse said: InspectorGadget said: Try eating a raw potato and see what happens. I love raw potato!! (washed and peeled, of course )one of the cheapest, best and quickest cures for indigestion !!  | |
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Mach said: Natisse said: I love raw potato!! (washed and peeled, of course )one of the cheapest, best and quickest cures for indigestion !! oh really? I never knew that!  cool! | |
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Anxiety said: EvilWhiteMale said: vegetarians can get sick too, and sometimes they get sick because of their non-meat diets.
I don't think anyone is saying that a vegetarian diet makes anyone invincible or impervious. Any number of things can make a person sick - genetics, environment, chemical dependencies, blah blah blah blah blah. And as for what doctors have to say, I can only take the advice of my own doctor, who thinks it's great that I'm a veggie and told me just last month to keep up the good work. i agree - you can live on vegan junk food all day and be very unhealthy. however, i've never met anybody who fits that description. but i have met a number of heart patients who had one thing in common: not a one of them was a vegetarian. you'll notice i've been very low-key about vegetarian and animal welfare issues lately, but i'm still amazed at how much misinformation is out there. i'm with Anx - there are a million things out there affecting your health every day that you don't have any control over. your diet, however, is entirely up to you. why not play it safe on the ONE issue you can do something about? only seems reasonable to me! | |
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well, there seems to be positive and negetive aspects to both arguments...bottom line it IS a choice
For my  I'll be waiting till I get more information and finding out more  | |
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Anxiety said: EvilWhiteMale said: vegetarians can get sick too, and sometimes they get sick because of their non-meat diets.
I don't think anyone is saying that a vegetarian diet makes anyone invincible or impervious. Any number of things can make a person sick - genetics, environment, chemical dependencies, blah blah blah blah blah. And as for what doctors have to say, I can only take the advice of my own doctor, who thinks it's great that I'm a veggie and told me just last month to keep up the good work. That's very short sighted. Look at the bigger picture. Meat is essential for the survival of man. It is impossible for man to go from onmivorious to vegetarian diet in merely a few decades. It would do more harm than good. Who knows where we will be in 10,000 years, but right now our species is not equipped to survive on plants only. | |
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I'm not a vegan , i see nothing wrong in dairy products
i eat vegetarian cheese tho , since for regular cheese they use a calf's stomach , sorry don't know the word in English If a cow is able to move freely , i don't see anything wrong in dairy products (this was a reply to Matt) It's nonsense to say you need meat !! (this is to the previous poster) [Edited 10/20/04 20:08pm] | |
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InspectorGadget said: Anxiety said: I don't think anyone is saying that a vegetarian diet makes anyone invincible or impervious. Any number of things can make a person sick - genetics, environment, chemical dependencies, blah blah blah blah blah. And as for what doctors have to say, I can only take the advice of my own doctor, who thinks it's great that I'm a veggie and told me just last month to keep up the good work. That's very short sighted. Look at the bigger picture. Meat is essential for the survival of man. It is impossible for man to go from onmivorious to vegetarian diet in merely a few decades. It would do more harm than good. Who knows where we will be in 10,000 years, but right now our species is not equipped to survive on plants only. how so? | |
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matt said: irresistibleb1tch said: you can get 100% of your nutritional requirements by eating a balanced vegetarian or vegan diet.
On paper, yes. Unfortunately, that's cold comfort to people such as myself who don't feel well on vegetarian/vegan diets. My long-term experiment with vegetarianism (and later veganism) led to my health slowly becoming worse and worse. My weight fell to as low as 109 pounds, which is borderline dangerous for a 5'8" adult male. I finally threw in the towel when my essentially vegan partner asked me to stop, because she saw what I was doing to my health. I reintroduced a limited amount of animal products back into my diet, and my health slowly improved. Today I'm at a healthy 130 pounds. My health is monitored very closely because I'm participating in a clinical study, and I seem to be in excellent health. Vegan Outreach is, to my knowledge, the only vegetarian/vegan advocacy group to acknowledge the problem seriously ("During my years of outreach, I have been told by many people that they tried to be vegetarian or vegan, but hadn't felt healthy. I found this troubling. How can we prevent animal suffering by promoting a vegan diet for our society if some people do not respond well to it? Finding an answer to this problem was a major motivation for my becoming a Registered Dietitian."). Unfortunately, their discussion of the issue is unsound because it assumes that anyone who has trouble on a vegan diet isn't doing it properly. People who know me will tell you that when I do something, I take it very seriously. I did a lot of research with credible information and enlisted the help of a vegan-friendly doctor. I truly don't know what I could have done better, in terms of diet, during my vegetarian/vegan experiment. Some people seem to do well on a vegetarian/vegan diet. If they're doing it for altruistic reasons, that's admirable. But for those of us who can't do it and be healthy, well, I reject the notion that I'm ethically obligated to sacrifice my own health for the sake of others. Beyond Vegetarianism is an excellent resource for those willing to look at the potential problems with vegetarianism and veganism. And no, it's not a front for the beef industry... the site owner, Tom Billings, "is lacto-vegetarian (includes some raw dairy), 75-90% raw." hi Matt - i always appreciate your thoughtfulness on this issue. thank you for your info. i am curious - what exactly is it, in your opinion, that made you not get enough nutrients out of your vegan diet? i'm interested in seeing some of the nutritional drawbacks. | |
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irresistibleb1tch said: where exactly are you hearing this? the only vital nutrient a vegan diet can't provide is B-12.
If the vegan diet needs B-12 supplementation to be healthy, then doesn't it necessarily follow that the diet itself is unsuitable? 
can you be an unhealthy vegan? sure! are there many? not to my knowledge. however, i hear of record numbers of heart bypasses being done every day - sorry, but that just doesn't make sense to me.
You seem to be making the error (a common one among vegetarians and vegans) of equating what most people actually eat with an omnivorous diet. I don't dispute that most people eat unhealthy diets. But it doesn't necessarily follow that a healthy diet cannot include some animal products. Please note: effective March 21, 2010, I've stepped down from my prince.org Moderator position. |
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matt said: irresistibleb1tch said: you can get 100% of your nutritional requirements by eating a balanced vegetarian or vegan diet.
On paper, yes. Unfortunately, that's cold comfort to people such as myself who don't feel well on vegetarian/vegan diets. My long-term experiment with vegetarianism (and later veganism) led to my health slowly becoming worse and worse. My weight fell to as low as 109 pounds, which is borderline dangerous for a 5'8" adult male. I finally threw in the towel when my essentially vegan partner asked me to stop, because she saw what I was doing to my health. I reintroduced a limited amount of animal products back into my diet, and my health slowly improved. Today I'm at a healthy 130 pounds. My health is monitored very closely because I'm participating in a clinical study, and I seem to be in excellent health. Vegan Outreach is, to my knowledge, the only vegetarian/vegan advocacy group to acknowledge the problem seriously ("During my years of outreach, I have been told by many people that they tried to be vegetarian or vegan, but hadn't felt healthy. I found this troubling. How can we prevent animal suffering by promoting a vegan diet for our society if some people do not respond well to it? Finding an answer to this problem was a major motivation for my becoming a Registered Dietitian."). Unfortunately, their discussion of the issue is unsound because it assumes that anyone who has trouble on a vegan diet isn't doing it properly. People who know me will tell you that when I do something, I take it very seriously. I did a lot of research with credible information and enlisted the help of a vegan-friendly doctor. I truly don't know what I could have done better, in terms of diet, during my vegetarian/vegan experiment. Some people seem to do well on a vegetarian/vegan diet. If they're doing it for altruistic reasons, that's admirable. But for those of us who can't do it and be healthy, well, I reject the notion that I'm ethically obligated to sacrifice my own health for the sake of others. Beyond Vegetarianism is an excellent resource for those willing to look at the potential problems with vegetarianism and veganism. And no, it's not a front for the beef industry... the site owner, Tom Billings, "is lacto-vegetarian (includes some raw dairy), 75-90% raw." I think this is a completely rational and understandable argument. i've known people who were really excited about starting a veggie/vegan diet and had to stop because for, whatever reasons, it was making them sick. heck, even the person who convinced me to stop eating meat had to give up his veggie diet after a couple of years, at the advice of his doctor. now, i can take this reality one of two ways - i can say that every person's body is different, and all the chemicals sloshing around in each of us is a completely different combination with different needs and limitations. what works for me might land someone else in the hospital. i understand that. still and all, and i'm not saying this to be callous but merely to speak frankly, when i hear about someone having to give up their veggie diet, i have no idea what they were putting (or not putting) in their bodies that led to their getting sick. i have no idea if their doctors could have kept them on a veggie diet or if it was more of an issue of the doctors having an old skool attitude that meat is good, unga bunga, and that their patients won't be hippy vegetarian pinko commies if they can help it. there are too many factors for me to really judge anything but my own experience, which is why i rarely indulge myself in bouts of veggie fundamentalist witnessing. it works for me, that's all i know. if you wanna try some of the stuff i eat, cool. i'll make you some. if you wanna know why i eat the way i eat, let's talk about it. if you're gonna say i'm making a mistake or cheating myself, 16 healthy years would say BZZZZT!!! WRONG ANSWER!  | |
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matt said: irresistibleb1tch said: where exactly are you hearing this? the only vital nutrient a vegan diet can't provide is B-12.
If the vegan diet needs B-12 supplementation to be healthy, then doesn't it necessarily follow that the diet itself is unsuitable?
can you be an unhealthy vegan? sure! are there many? not to my knowledge. however, i hear of record numbers of heart bypasses being done every day - sorry, but that just doesn't make sense to me.
You seem to be making the error (a common one among vegetarians and vegans) of equating what most people actually eat with an omnivorous diet. I don't dispute that most people eat unhealthy diets. But it doesn't necessarily follow that a healthy diet cannot include some animal products. on the B-12 issue - i'd say no, a vegan diet is not, in today's world, unsuitable. the benefits far outweigh the risk of B-12 deficiency, especially when it is easily remedied through supplements. i agree that you can be perfectly healthy with SOME animal products. you can also be healthy with SOME artificial sweetners, and SOME soft drinks, and even SOME amounts of ant killer. doesn't mean that you should have some of those things, if evidence shows that you're better off without. and where in this equasion the whole "inflict no pain or suffering" argument comes in, is up to each individual. | |
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(was a reply to Anx) [Edited 10/20/04 19:58pm] | |
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matt said: You seem to be making the error (a common one among vegetarians and vegans) of equating what most people actually eat with an omnivorous diet. I don't dispute that most people eat unhealthy diets. But it doesn't necessarily follow that a healthy diet cannot include some animal products. i can buy that. i know people who have very balanced, moderate diets and they seem to do just fine. i guess the only thing i get stuck on is, if someone asks me to condone their diet because it's got meat in it, i'm not gonna do it. if someone expects me to respect their choice because they respect mine, then we have no problems. just don't expect me to eat what you eat (which i've never had a problem with yet). | |
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Anxiety said: hippy vegetarian pinko commies
let's hear it for the HVPCs! | |
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Well , i'm NOT a hippy nor a commie
but what's a pinko ?? [Edited 10/20/04 20:01pm] | |
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irresistibleb1tch said: InspectorGadget said: That's very short sighted. Look at the bigger picture. Meat is essential for the survival of man. It is impossible for man to go from onmivorious to vegetarian diet in merely a few decades. It would do more harm than good. Who knows where we will be in 10,000 years, but right now our species is not equipped to survive on plants only. how so? There is more to meat than just 'proteins' and vitamins. For example, there are differences in the amino-acid balances (which are the building blocks for proteins) and even some which cannot be found in any plants. If you understand the human body is one big chemical lab, then you will also realize what great impact small changes can and will have on us as a species. It might not be evident in the first few generations, but eventually it will. Not that I'm really worried the vegetarian diet will wipe us out any time soon since the vast majority of the global population simply doesn't have the means to support a healthy vegetarian diet, but it's interesting to wonder what would happen..... | |
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I love eating meat and can never see myself not eating it. I would rather shoot myself in the head.
I enjoy eating and drinking as much as almost anything in life. I have tried many of those vegan substitutes for meat and they taste nothing like the glory that is real meat. I dont see how it can be claimed that all meat eaters have bad diets. My grandparents are huge meat munchers and are in the 90's. Sorry if i offend anyone but i'm just being honest. When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading. | |
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matt said: irresistibleb1tch said: where exactly are you hearing this? the only vital nutrient a vegan diet can't provide is B-12.
If the vegan diet needs B-12 supplementation to be healthy, then doesn't it necessarily follow that the diet itself is unsuitable?
can you be an unhealthy vegan? sure! are there many? not to my knowledge. however, i hear of record numbers of heart bypasses being done every day - sorry, but that just doesn't make sense to me.
You seem to be making the error (a common one among vegetarians and vegans) of equating what most people actually eat with an omnivorous diet. I don't dispute that most people eat unhealthy diets. But it doesn't necessarily follow that a healthy diet cannot include some animal products. Very wise words. | |
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InspectorGadget said: irresistibleb1tch said: how so? There is more to meat than just 'proteins' and vitamins. For example, there are differences in the amino-acid balances (which are the building blocks for proteins) and even some which cannot be found in any plants. If you understand the human body is one big chemical lab, then you will also realize what great impact small changes can and will have on us as a species. It might not be evident in the first few generations, but eventually it will. Not that I'm really worried the vegetarian diet will wipe us out any time soon since the vast majority of the global population simply doesn't have the means to support a healthy vegetarian diet, but it's interesting to wonder what would happen..... i agree. hell, i'm no scientist, but at least in the short run, it's evident that a high-fat, meat-based diet leads to a lot of diseases we witness today - heart disease, type 2 diabetes, etc. i guess i just don't understand why people are willing to risk their health in the face of this evidence.  | |
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irresistibleb1tch said: InspectorGadget said: There is more to meat than just 'proteins' and vitamins. For example, there are differences in the amino-acid balances (which are the building blocks for proteins) and even some which cannot be found in any plants. If you understand the human body is one big chemical lab, then you will also realize what great impact small changes can and will have on us as a species. It might not be evident in the first few generations, but eventually it will. Not that I'm really worried the vegetarian diet will wipe us out any time soon since the vast majority of the global population simply doesn't have the means to support a healthy vegetarian diet, but it's interesting to wonder what would happen..... i agree. hell, i'm no scientist, but at least in the short run, it's evident that a high-fat, meat-based diet leads to a lot of diseases we witness today - heart disease, type 2 diabetes, etc. i guess i just don't understand why people are willing to risk their health in the face of this evidence. You can have a high meat diet that isnt high fat though. There isn't much fat on lean meat at all so it just depends on how you cook it. When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading. | |
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bkw said: I love eating meat and can never see myself not eating it. I would rather shoot myself in the head.
 BKW, at first, i was going to call you on that one, and then i realized that i feel similarly about vodka... so it's all good! 
but if you ever want to come over to "the other side", just let me know!  | |
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irresistibleb1tch said: bkw said: I love eating meat and can never see myself not eating it. I would rather shoot myself in the head.
BKW, at first, i was going to call you on that one, and then i realized that i feel similarly about vodka... so it's all good!
but if you ever want to come over to "the other side", just let me know! You bet!  When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading. | |
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bkw said: irresistibleb1tch said: BKW, at first, i was going to call you on that one, and then i realized that i feel similarly about vodka... so it's all good!
but if you ever want to come over to "the other side", just let me know! You bet! | |
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irresistibleb1tch said: Have you seen this video already ? Enjoy your meal ! (was replying to BKW) [Edited 10/20/04 20:15pm] | |
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Dewrede said: irresistibleb1tch said: Have you seen this video already ? Enjoy your meal ! (was replying to BKW) [Edited 10/20/04 20:15pm] Yeah, I've seen it. I've also seen animals slaughtered in person at a slaughter yard. Yes, it's horrible to watch and think about. It doesn't change the fact that I still love eating meat. If I could magically put them to sleep I would. When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading. | |
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Courtesy of the greatest page in the Universe! (his words not mine)
you guys better stop being vegetarians, because for every animal you don't eat, this guy will eat three. Nullify the Vegetarian Moral Crusade [Edited 10/20/04 20:36pm] [Edited 10/20/04 21:06pm] "Knowledge is preferable to ignorance. Better by far to embrace the hard truth than a reassuring faith. If we crave some cosmic purpose, then let us find ourselves a worthy goal" - Carl Sagan | |
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Dewrede said: irresistibleb1tch said: Have you seen this video already ? Enjoy your meal ! (was replying to BKW) [Edited 10/20/04 20:15pm] Delicious. Plate that one up and send it to my table, I'll give him a good home. "Knowledge is preferable to ignorance. Better by far to embrace the hard truth than a reassuring faith. If we crave some cosmic purpose, then let us find ourselves a worthy goal" - Carl Sagan | |
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Linguistic correction:
People get murdered Animals get slaughtered not the other way around Now that we got that outta the way... What about the poor insects that get MURDERED every day? 
Let's keep them in mind shall we? And for anyone who doesnt believe in SLAUGHTERING animals because of moral concerns: more power to you 
(but dont let me catch U wearing any type of leather belts, boots, hats etc... m'kay?) prove me wrong | |
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