I realize that with mainstrean acceptance, there is always a price to pay...but I am getting tired of all the gay TV and how now it's SO ordinary to be gay. It isn't funky anymore. ANd I miss seeing INTELLIGENT role models like Lily Tomlin, Harvey Feinstein etc being part of it all.

Now we have that guy from Queer Eye and Graham Norton representin and it just aint right. Will and Grace -ugh...can only stand it for the Jack and Karen parts...the Actor who plays Will is not only awful, but not even gay. His character is really insulting.
Queer as Folk...besides the eye candy, really makes us look good, right?
Graham Norton...just not funny, cute but not funny
Queer Eye...good for an episode...the rest is cringe worthy
Boy meets Boy...This was the absolute worst with fake tears and all. I was embarassed to be gay just watching it.

You know, we had ellen and when she came out it was a BIG deal. Unfortuneatley her show was no longer funny, so it got cancelled. But it makes me mad, cuz a little while later, we get W&G...which PALES to Ellens show IMO. And it's all of a sudden cool to be gay.

Is anyone else feeling this with me? Oh I suppose I should say that regular gay bars are NOT my scene...I go for the more funky/regular guy bars where there normally isn't a dance floor. Berlin in chicago..is the exception.

I agree.

Well keep in mind that these are all fictional characters and shouldn't really matter if a straight person plays a gay character or not.

I personally don't appreciate the one-dimensional gay cliche of the lisping limp-wristed etc etc style of that main Queer Eye dude, and Jack from W&G, because that is NOT representin. Queer As Folk displays a majority of the gay characters as promiscuous, which does nothing but reinforce more negative stereotypes.

I think the realest representation of life (gay AND straight) is HBO's Six Feet Under. And if you haven't seen it, you should really go rent the first season on DVD and have a little marathon.

no....everything on tv these days are stereotypes.....from reality show candidates that perpetuate stereotypes (loud black man-natch, flamming queen-natch, bimbo fake boobed blond-natch).....


whats the best show on non-cable tv right now? Arrested Development...and its one of the worst rated...


errr.

Ahhhh, THANK YOU!!!!

You are SO preaching to the choir where I'm concerned - I've been going off on this rant for a couple of years now.

I feel like gay culture (at least as portrayed in the media) is at its "Good Times" moment right now. We've gone a step beyond our "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" moment where every mention of the word "gay" had to be politically charged; now it's all about gay folks being portrayed as sex-starved fab-u-trons with perfect teeth, perfect hair, 24/7 Wildean wit and couture issues to break the bank. It's like gay characters and media figures are painted with a really broad brush, but hey! It's a broad brush that makes us look REALLY sexy, so we should be happy about that, right?!

I'd love to see just a BIT of intelligence infused into the gay crap we have on TV right now. I'd love to see a gay male Janeane Garofalo character on QAF, who avoids the gym and chain-smokes and clucks at the other characters' sexual slip-ups and circuit party melodramas. Add to Will & Grace a functional gay married couple who have been together for years and could act as wacky role models to the two main male characters who seem to have been oddly single for however many years the show has been on (unless they've written love interests in recently, i hardly watch that show). Queer Eye? Hell if I know what I'd do to fortify that drek.

What you're talking about is exactly one of the reasons I adore "Strangers With Candy" - it always took a really irreverent attitude toward gay subject matter, and lumped it in as being as weird/funny/de-rigeur as any other aspect of life that can be made fun of. I can't think of many other shows that have taken such a refreshingly blase or atypical direction.

Anxiety said:

:applause: I agree, especially the ideas for improving our current shows.
I haven't seen Strangers With Candy though.

superspaceboy said:

The 2 shockers on this thread:

1. Lily Tomlin is gay? I had no idea!

2. I'm surprised you think the Will character on Will & Grace is horrible, but you didn't comment at all on how they've dumbed down the Jack character to a horny 6 year old. I like the show but I don't like that everything coming out of Jack's mouth reflects either how horny he is or how insanely stupid he is

And SOSGemini - I'm with you on Arrested Development! It's #1 on my Tivo

It almost seems like gay people don't like to see charictatures of themselves that point out their less than flattering attributes sometimes...

Flip through any local gay publication and you'll probabbly see countless ads for foam partys, massotherapists who throw in a happy ending, bathhouses, drag pageants, escorts, leather conventions, etc...

And we're expecting mainstream TV to depict us in a better light?

What they show on Queer Eye or QAF pales in comparison to what you would see at a gay pride parade...

I disagree. Characters in sitcoms are stereotypically dumb. No real differences between "gay" or "straight" shows. I even think it's a good sign; it seems like ppl think: hey! gay ppl are just as normal as straight, so let's make the same unintelligent shows...

AlfofMelmak said:

I think that's right. I mean, how intelligent do Joey, Ross and Chandler look on friends? Of course, the girls are all thick too.

bkw said:

This is true, and I can't speak for any of the other shows mentioned 'cause I don't watch them. I do think the Jack character on Will & Grace started out a bit more on the witty side but the more popular the show got, the dumber his character got I'm just wondering why the change? I dunno...

As long as the possibility of being gay is not reflected into our upbringings, then the stereotyping will last.

In an ideal world, where little kids not only can play house in a mummy/daddy roleplaying, but also in a daddy/daddy or mummy/mummy roleplay, than maybe our upbringing would not instill in us the sense that being gay is wrong.

This goes both ways; it would instruct lil straight people there is nothing wrong with it.

But then again, what would gay people be if we did not have to go through that struggle that defines us as persons later on? My coming out, my struggle, my bumping into prejudice and ignorance made me a stronger person, a more AWARE person.

So the knife cuts both ways.

Gay culture. I never had the feeling I belonged there. Too many scenes and I can never make up mymind which I like and don't like. I never had the feeling anything representing gay life fitted me in the past, still don't now.

In Holland alot of the so called walls have tumbled; our rights are level with straight people. We can marry, adopt and have every advantage straight people have.
But remember, this also leads to the vertrutting (getting boring) of the gay scene. Clubs do not draw huge crowds anymore, people stay in to, ironically, watch Will & Grace.

Tom said:

well, to me it's a case of the snake swallowing its own tail. when we only get one characterization in the popular media, we're going to think "hey, that's what i'm supposed to be like," and the people follow the trends and the trends follow the people and so on and so forth.

i truly believe with time will come a greater diversity, and one day, waaay down the road, we'll see shows like "law & order" or "CSI" with lead characters who just so happen to be gay and their sexuality isn't an "issue" on the show. that kinda happened on ER, i guess. sorta happens on "six feet under", though the gay brother's character can take a dip into the heavyhanded at times....but it's progress.

i can't help but think about the show "normal, ohio", which was about john goodman as a working class, pudgy, schmoe in the midwest who just happened to be gay. it flopped right out of the gate - maybe we're not ready for gay characters who don't look or act like carson or jack, just like in the early '70s we weren't ready for black women who didn't look or act like christy love or willona.

sure there's truth in stereotypes, but there's also such a rich well of personalities and dynamics and situations and - yes, even archetypes and further stereotypes - that are being completely overlooked. in a way, that's a good thing, because it shows the potential of all we hopefully have to look forward to.

superspaceboy said:

What are you talking about?

Lily Tomlin swung on the closet door for years.

The most intelligent thing that Harvey Fierstein ever said was : "Visibility at any price."

As a gay man, I'm constantly bemused by other gay peoples' capacity to find a black cloud within any silver lining.

Interesting interview with Mr. Fierstein here: http://www.oasismag.com/I...tein2.html

I don't care if homosexuals are portrated as witty, urbane, smart, good-looking or effete. It's better than being displayed as simpering, tragic perverts, isn't it?

Anxiety said:[quote]

Tom said:

True. I hope people will develop gay 'characters' that can still be witty though. I mean, I know guys that are exact blue prints of Jack of WIll & Grace fame. It's part of gay culture and gay people will always be different.

Do you think we need to celebrate this diversity?

BinaryJustin said:

and i guess being portrayed as a second class citizen is better than being portrayed as a third class citizen.

i'm sorry, that was a bit melodramatic. but the point's in there somewhere. i get what you're saying, but why settle?

On a side-note: isn't it time to replace the word "straight" ? It implicates hetero's are normal and thus through association, gays are not.
It's commonplace to use "hetero" in Holland.

ok, question.

are there any gay characters that you can point to and say "that person's sharp. if that person were real and not a fictional character, i'd really really look up to them."

or heck, can you think of a really iconic, brilliantly written character who's gay? like, you'd put their picture on a poster in your home kind of iconic?

or how about performers who are gay? are there any folks you can think of who you'd consider role models in anyway, or heroes, or even just ridiculously talented?

i'm not saying the answers don't exist. i'm just askin'. and if there's a lack of answers, what would the ideal answer look like?

AlfofMelmak said:

:applause:
[This message was edited Thu Aug 19 23:52:09 2004 by gooeythehamster]

Anxiety said:

I had a poster of Harvey Fierstein in bunny slippers on my wall as a teen. Does that count?

Anxiety said:

I'm not saying "we" should settle. I'm saying it's a start.

Twenty years ago when I was a teenager, my only gay role-model was Steven Carrington in Dynasty!

I don't think that younger people realise just how closeted the media was - even ten years ago.

We should be celebrating any kind of recognition - even if that representation is skewed towards stereotypes in the main.

If people don't like what they see on television, they should sit down and write their own scripts.

gooeythehamster said:

yes, of course. but another question - and this is something that bugged me since i saw it:

what did you think about harvey's performance in "independence day"? he played a total sissy stereotype who was constantly calling his mommy when he was scared and got killed in the first half of the movie, which (in my opinion) was a thinly-veiled propaganda piece championing jingoist bravado (hence the movie title) and the power of the penis in general (come on - randy quaid's sacrificial attack on the aliens was SUCH a sperm metaphor it wasn't even funny). but harvey's character could have been played by butterfly mcqueen and it would have been more butch. "i don't know nuthin' bout killin' no aliens!!! eeek!!!" if dude is so into the empowerment of gay folks, which i know he IS - what was up with him taking that role?

just askin'. cuz like i said, it's bugged me for years.

Anxiety said:

Happy birthday, by the way!

BinaryJustin said:

And don't think some of us aren't.

I get your point, but I can't watch five minutes of QAF without getting angry and feeling like, UGH, there's so much MORE that can be expressed than what we're getting fed. I do see an organic progression of what's being shown in television and the movies, and my god - I think the music industry is really taking the lead as it's always done - I think Rufus Wainright for example is a great role model, campy as he can get, because he's making really deep, introspective, challenging music that everyone can get into. Right on for that.

When I was a teenager and I was searching for some kind of role model or some kind of "model" in general in popular culture, I latched right on to John Waters, simply because his view of sexuality in general was so irreverent and absurd that it completely flew in the face of all the cliches of the time...and his POV still stands up today. He's always played the contrarian, but there's always been something behind his contrarianism in that he always champions the outsider, whether straight or gay. And there's something really refreshingly liberating and "queer" about that.

I do think we're on the way...but we're not there yet.



thanks!

BinaryJustin said:

I agree that we are portrayed a little better. We don't have to die in movies nor do we have to be bad or perverted in any way. I think we have come a long way in terms of acceptance. Along with that means that we're going to blend in with all of the rest of it all. Good and bad.

It just seems that we sort of went from being portayed as tragic...to being portrayed as smart and thoughtful...to now...where are stereotyped like everything else. I do believe that eventuall there will be a balance and we will see some sort of substance again...instead of this metro sexual flighty sort of thing.

But I can say this...heres your silver lining...That if it wasn't for this move toward the mainstream we wouldn't have seen things like the whole marriage push like we did this year. I think it's making it more easier and more comfortable to pass laws to protect us or get rid of those that are stupid like the anti-sodemy laws.

Still don't see that much gay intamacy though..and that's still a shame.

Anxiety said:

Well, what can I say? I was VERY disappointed in that role. Not because the role is effeminate. That's Harvey; what you hear is what you get. But the fact they killed him off. I even mumbled, suuuure the gay character has got to go. I'd rather seen him poof up the presidential speech that I found even tackier.

Who knows what propmted him to take the role? Money? Maybe he knew someone on the film? Ayedunno.

I just know that whenever I hear that voice I don't care; I just love him. Unconditionally. He's in his fifties and can do whatever he wants to. More joy to him. Maybe he is a rolemodel to show us even genius people can play in bad movies if they want.

BinaryJustin said:

right on, Mister.

gooey, i kinda know what you mean. john waters is to me what it appears harvey is to you, and he recently played a pedophile priest in "blood feast 2" - and i thought it was completely hilarious (even though the movie was beneath even good laughable schlock, ugh)...but still, there he was, someone who really influenced the way i look at life as a gay male probably more than anyone else, and he's playing this negative stereotype...but because it's the prince of puke, and i kind of know his whole schtick, it was somehow "okay" to me. maybe to someone who's a huge follower of harvey fierstein, his role in "independence day" was easily forgivable to them, too.

Anxiety said:

Off topic, but have you seen the trailer for his new film? with Johnny Knoxville? Looks GREAT!!!