PatrickS77 said:

bboy87 said:

Yeah. 70 minutes seems a bit pathetic. Jacksons setlists are better these days.

Triumph Tour was pretty pared down compared to the later Destiny Tour shows and 1978 concerts. All killer, no filler

PatrickS77 said:

bboy87 said:

PatrickS77 said:

purple05 said:

Tontoman22 said:

I thought he was the best young singer ( male vocalist) we have ever had. I thought he was sensational, with the Jackson 5 and the solo stuff he did in the 70s. Ben, Got to Be There, I Wanna Be Where You Are, Happy etc... But after he started with the nose surgeries his voice changed (which is why Streisand never got her nose fixed), he couldn't reach those high notes like he could in his younger days. He wasn't the same vocalist. I didn't myself care for anything much after Thriller, and like a few from that.

He couldn’t reach high notes? Men aren’t reaching the same notes postpuberty unless they were castrated. MJ has a pretty wide chest range

Puberty doesn't change your vocal ability, surgery does. His tone change before "Off the Wall", that becasue he reached puberty before then (and that is specifically when the change took place) And as far as you talking about recordings, recording are just that....recordings. What can be done in a studio, doesn't often translate to live performances.

[Edited 1/9/19 7:08am]

MickyDolenz said:

HAPPYPERSON said:

I'm sad that Destiny & Triumph are not celebrated much

The Jacksons as a group never really crossed over, they were more successful on R&B radio. The later Jackson 5 records had less crossover as well. Many people think All I Do was original to Troop. It was the early J5 that had a lot of crossover. The Jacksons didn't even have a greatest hits until 2004, unless you count the 1981 live album. That's mainly why they don't get spoken about today in the mainstream music press, just like they're not that likely to write about the Isley Brothers or Teddy Pendergrass who were also more popular with the R&B audience than the pop audience. Today, other than maybe Shake Your Body, The Jacksons don't get played on oldies radio stations that focus on Top 40 pop hits. They do get airplay for other songs on Adult R&B stations. Others acts that did crossover like Earth Wind & Fire and JT Taylor era Kool & The Gang get quite a bit of airplay on pop oldies radio and are also often in movies, TV, and commercials. On Youtube, songs like September, Boggie Wonderland, & Celebration have over 100 million views, way more than any video by The Jacksons. The highest is Can You Feel It with 13 million and for the J5 - I Want You Back with 52 million.

"Cross overing" isn't some proof that a body of work lack merit. As, I always say crossover to what? Three dogs looking out the damn window?

TD3 said:

"Cross overing" isn't some proof that a body of work lack merit. As, I always say crossover to what? Three dogs looking out the damn window?

Nobody said anything about that. The OP said The Jacksons music don't get as much attention in Mike's career. Well, being more well known to the mainstream means more media attention than someone who isn't. Like Janet's music gets written about more than Jermaine's and he has more albums than she does. I can find hundreds of books about The Beatles, but none about the Isley Brothers who had records out before them. There's even books & documentaries about Pete Best & Stuart Sutcliffe, who weren't even in The Beatles when they became famous. There's also a lot of books about Miles Davis & Jimi Hendrix, who both had a white audience. Johnny Guitar Watson, Jesse Johnson, or Ernie Isley don't get put on Rolling Stone lists for best guitarists. But you can find books about cars Elvis Presley owned, his stage outfits & clothes, his movies, his time in the army, and his different girlfriends. If Michael Jackson, Aretha Franklin, & Whitney Houston hadn't crossed over big, it's unlikely their funerals would have been shown on TV. The Unsung TV show gives some attention to R&B acts that they don't get otherwise, even if some of them are not really "unsung". On some of the episodes, there's little or no video footage from the acts heyday, and they have photos there instead.

TD3 said:

"Cross overing" isn't some proof that a body of work lack merit. As, I always say crossover to what? Three dogs looking out the damn window?

I agree.Some people are obsessed with "crossing over",but I think that good music will find its own audience.I hate to keep using the same example (lol) but Frankie Beverly and Maze didn't cross over but that means nothing to their loyal,devoted fans.Parliament and Funkadelic weren't a major crossover act,but again,who cares? Their many loyal fans still enjoy their music anyway.George Clinton has dismissed the idea of crossing over,saying "Sometimes when you cross over,you can't cross back"

SoulAlive said:

but again,who cares?

But you're on a site of a guy who appeared on TV shows in his early career with a larger white audience like American Bandstand, Saturday Night Live, & Solid Gold, but didn't go on Soul Train. He also claimed to have a white parent in early interviews. If he wasn't trying to crossover, what is the point of doing that?

MickyDolenz said:

SoulAlive said:

but again,who cares?

But you're on a site of a guy who appeared on TV shows in his early career with a larger white audience like American Bandstand, Saturday Night Live, & Solid Gold, but didn't go on Soul Train. He also claimed to have a white parent in early interviews. If he wasn't trying to crossover, what is the point of doing that?

Prince(r.i.p.) on SOul Train

^^Is that his early career? American Bandstand & Solid Gold had been cancelled before that song came out. If Prince hadn't crossed over this site wouldn't even exist.

Cinny said:

The context is yesterday was the 40th anniversary of Destiny (released December 18, 1978) and we would love to talk about it as a group effort and an accomplishment for rhythm and blues, but it does get overshadowed when Mike is on lead vocals.

Did I miss something here... when hasn't the lead singer (with maybe the exception of (Van Halen and Led Zepplin ) over shadowed the group? Would the Rolling Stones had the amount of success if Mick wasn't in the group? We've seen lead singers leave groups and their fellow band-mates floundered. Yes, we've seen some lead singers crash and burn after they leave the group. Its no accident Journey had to find a guy who could sounds and sings like Perry, is it?

Again....

If you don't have the Jackson 5, the Jackson's you don't MJ career. You don't most Black musicians creating Jazz Rock-Roll/ R&B, Soul, Funk, and yes Rap without Blues and Gospel.

This isn't directed towardst you Cinny. Now days people base "history" something that happen two weeks ago or doing their lifetime. Really? Its called a body of work and Micheal's careerdidn't start in 1982.

Let me break this down, without the second Jame Brown band, you don't get the funk you heard. You don't get Sista Franklin's sangin'... until Jerry Wexler realizes Ms. Franklin should never recorded another song again without her playing piano. We got a WHOLE different sound when Isely Brothers, brother-in-law (Chris Jasper) joins the group and when Jim Hendrix played with them for a short time. You judge an artist, a group, a singer on their body of work, you don't just judge a part of it. Jackson 5, and The Jackson's aren't footnote. (IMHO)


Footnote: Michael all but left the radio air-waves during his lifetime in the U.S. Would we have heard MJ music in commercials if he was still living? Nope. That's a whole other can of worms.

SoulAlive said:

TD3 said:

"Crossing over" isn't some proof that a body of work lack merit. As, I always say crossover to what? Three dogs looking out the damn window?

I agree.Some people are obsessed with "crossing over",but I think that good music will find its own audience.I hate to keep using the same example (lol) but Frankie Beverly and Maze didn't cross over but that means nothing to their loyal,devoted fans.Parliament and Funkadelic weren't a major crossover act,but again,who cares? Their many loyal fans still enjoy their music anyway.George Clinton has dismissed the idea of crossing over,saying "Sometimes when you cross over,you can't cross back"

Thank you...


The whole crossover myth is something evented by the music industry post WWII for monetary and racial reason. Prior to World War II Jazz was the standard, did Duke Ellington, Count Basie, Billy Holiday, Ella Fitzgerald Billie Eckstine... did they" crossover". How and the world are you gonna cross over something you invented from jump? The term is purley an American term created by the music industry for the U.S. Market. Peroid. Why has Jazz never been appricated in this nation, yet it was embraced all around the world? The names I mentioned should give all a clue.

TD3 said:

Prior to World War II Jazz was the standard, did Duke Ellington, Count Basie, Billy Holiday, Ella Fitzgerald Billie Eckstine... did they" crossover".

But wasn't these acts called "race music" in the US during their time? It was also the era of "coon songs" & blackface. Some black performers did blackface, it wasn't just whites. There was still crossover of some kind, the ones who didn't generally played the chitlin' circuit. Or they moved overseas to other countries like Josephine Baker

MickyDolenz said:

TD3 said:

Prior to World War II Jazz was the standard, did Duke Ellington, Count Basie, Billy Holiday, Ella Fitzgerald Billie Eckstine... did they" crossover".

But wasn't these acts called "race music" in the US during their time? It was also the era of "coon songs" & blackface. Some black performers did blackface, it wasn't just whites. There was still crossover of some kind, the ones who didn't generally played the chitlin' circuit. Or they moved overseas to other countries like Josephine Baker

When it all said and do Mickey.... this notion that "crossing over" is some how a stampe of crediblity because white people purchsae black peoples music is delusional. Call it jungle music, race music or anything else white people were buying music and slumming Black clubs listening to African American musician. Irresptive of what the press peddles or the recorded company. But we live in a 'nation whose always seen themselves through a crooked mirror.'

TD3 said:

When it all said and do Mickey.... this notion that "crossing over" is some how a stampe of crediblity because white people purchsae black peoples music is delusional. Call it jungle music, race music or anything else white people were buying music and slumming Black clubs listening to African American musician. Irresptive of what the press peddles or the recorded company. But we live in a 'nation whose always seen themselves through a crooked mirror.'

It's white people who call non-white ethnic music "world music". All music on earth is made in the world, none of the music here is made by Martians or Klingons. So the title "world music" makes no sense to me. If Paul Simon makes "world music" then it sells a lot and get many awards, but the actual "world music" acts don't get the same sales. I think crossing over has less to do with getting validation from white people than it is making more money. I'm pretty sure Michael Jackson & Lionel Richie made more money than Maze or Teddy Pendergrass. Nat King Cole didn't get a TV show because of only being known to black audience. Crossover is not only about R&B or black artists. There's country crossover, people like Kenny Rogers, Babara Mandrell, Eddie Rabbitt, & Shania Twain. There's also Latin crossover (Gloria Estefan, Selena, Ricky Martin, Jon Secada, Lisa Lisa, etc.) Whites are also more likely to be nostalgic, like the many deluxe reissues of Dark Side Of The Moon or showing colorized versions of I Love Lucy at Christmas plus broadcasting other old stuff every year like It's A Wonderful Life and Charlie Brown specials. Some of the superheros like Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Shazam! & Batman were created in the 1930s & 1940s, but they're still making them and their movies are huge today. They are more likely purchase merchandise like rock & metal band logo patches for jean jackets, Beatle dolls, Iron Maiden "Eddie" stuff, New Kids On The Black bedsheets, a Elvis dancing telephone, even a KISS Kasket to be buried in. They'll buy CDs of flubbed takes & studio chatter like Anthology by The Beatles. Elvis & The Monkees have CDs like that too. Haven't seen any of that for Frankie Beverly. Many old R&B albums either went out of print or never made it to CD. Or they are only available as expensive imports from Japan or UK companies. Hip hop sampling these records helped some of the acts finacially. R&B doesn't usually get the deluxe treatment like the recent Sgt Pepper & White Album or Paul McCartney & John Lennon solo album box sets either. Many of the rock acts had a lot of excess material in the first place because they got bigger budgets for recording & promotion. When The Beatles were new and unknown, their debut album was recorded in 1 day, but Sgt. Pepper took 6 months. I read once that jazz & blues acts decades ago usually only did 1 or 2 takes because they couldn't afford much studio time. They'd leave mistakes on the records. It's been said that Michael Jackson spent millions of dollars recording albums after Thriller. He couldn't have done that without crossover success and the money & clout that came with it, nor would he have the money to make extravagant music videos.

Nah I'd say it's integral to his adult career. I break it down like this:

The first trilogy is Destiny/Off The Wall/Triumph

Second would be Thriller/Bad/Dangerous

HIStory is the footnote/curtain call imo. Guess you could call Invincible an encore. Never listened to Goin' Places or Victory (shout out to State Of Shock and Enjoy Yourself))

1: Dangerous (It's imperfect; but the most addictive)

2: Bad (Best vocal character/groove of his career)

3: Thriller (Most polished production effort. I see you Toto)

4: Destiny (The definitive Michael/Jacksons record. If only Show You The Way To Go replaced Bless His Soul, it does on my phone)

5: Off The Wall (A close runner up, but side-two leaves me wanting, sans Stevie)

6: Triumph (Too many cooks in the kitchen. Or I should say, over seasoned)

7: HIStory (Stellar opening on tracks 1-3 with a return to form on the music videos, but the album descends into bitterness and overblown balladry)

8: Blood On The Dance Floor (Title track, Ghosts, Morphine and the seriously funky Superfly Sister are legit. Three or four more new songs and this could have been something akin to Yeezus, not to mention better than the album it remixed)

9: Invincble (You Rock My World and Butterflies are good tracks to bow out on)

[Edited 1/19/19 19:14pm]

[Edited 1/19/19 19:17pm]

[Edited 1/19/19 19:22pm]

Tontoman22 said:

Tontoman22 said:

GoldDolphin said:

Tontoman22 said:

Puberty doesn't change your vocal ability, surgery does. His tone change before "Off the Wall", that becasue he reached puberty before then (and that is specifically when the change took place) And as far as you talking about recordings, recording are just that....recordings. What can be done in a studio, doesn't often translate to live performances.

[Edited 1/9/19 7:08am]

You clearly know very little of Mr. Jackson and his singing abilities. His range was supreme well into his later years. He such a beautiful tone, vibrato and range that very few male singers have. His surgery did not change his voice like you’re suggesting LOL. He had a range of 4 octaves and Seth Riggs his vocal coach said that he could hits high notes that he didn’t even record because he didn’t feel the need to. https://m.youtube.com/wat...o_jBt2QUJI

He soundsed mad nasally to me in the later years. Like he has a head cold when he sang..

rdhull said:

purple05 said:

rdhull said:

He soundsed mad nasally to me in the later years. Like he has a head cold when he sang..

Later years must mean Invincible

invincible, History, parts of Bad, Dangerous