independent and unofficial
Prince fan community site
Tue 18th Dec 2018 5:11am
Welcome! Sign up or enter username and password to remember me
Forum jump
Forums > Music: Non-Prince > How did Blues morph into Rock/Hard Rock/Heavy Metal
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Page 1 of 2 12>
  New topic   Printable     (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
Author

Tweet     Share

Message
Thread started 07/21/18 9:16pm

DonRants

How did Blues morph into Rock/Hard Rock/Heavy Metal

Hey Guys,

I am tryinhg to trace how Blues music became Rock/Hard Rock/Heavy Meatal. Can anyone recommend websites, books, recordings, documentaries etc. Thanks.

To All the Haters on the Internet
No more Candy 4 U
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #1 posted 07/21/18 9:21pm

luv4u

Moderator

avatar

moderator

How did Blues Influence Rock and Roll?

https://blogs.longwood.ed...-and-roll/

Edmonton, AB - canada

Ohh purple joy oh purple bliss oh purple rapture!
REAL MUSIC by REAL MUSICIANS - Prince
"I kind of wish there was a reason for Prince to make the site crash more" ~~ Ben
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #2 posted 07/22/18 3:51am

2045RadicalMat
tZ

I was just going to say EARTH --> BLACK SABBATH for metal. But metal is steeped in medieval and psychedelic bands. Modern metal has changed somewhat. But one cannot underestimate the effect that Tony Iommi's chopped off finger tips had for modern music. plus he's a maestro of the riff.

"Ahhh c'mon, BE A NOSE! " - WALTER PAISLEY
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #3 posted 07/22/18 1:52pm

MickyDolenz

avatar

A few years ago VH-1 Classic had a limited run series called Metal Evolution that I watched. I don't know where you can see it now, but the 1st episode probably has what you want as far as metal is concerned. There's also an episode about shock rock which mentions Screamin' Jay Hawkins. Maybe you can see if it's on VH-1's website. I think its on DVD too.

For 65 years straight, the #1 genre in music, selling wise, was rock n' roll worldwide. Last year (2017) in June, it got de-crowned by hip hop. Hip hop is the #1 genre. It's hip hop - rock - country - pop or pop - country. ~ Pras
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #4 posted 07/23/18 7:11pm

Musician9

Metal and all of its subgenres are completely independent from the blues, as is most hard rock and other forms. They would have developed irregardless of American blues rock and British blues. Metal stems from classical influences. Of course some rock genres emerged from the blues, but to me that's mostly sixties acts, while in the 70s you got progressive rock that had no basis in the blues or even classical roots, to me it's just good music, perhaps leaning towards avante garde, but blues is a time capsule with only a few true subgenres whereas rock is a whole other species of music.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #5 posted 07/25/18 12:41pm

DonRants

Musician9 said:

Metal and all of its subgenres are completely independent from the blues, as is most hard rock and other forms. They would have developed irregardless of American blues rock and British blues. Metal stems from classical influences. Of course some rock genres emerged from the blues, but to me that's mostly sixties acts, while in the 70s you got progressive rock that had no basis in the blues or even classical roots, to me it's just good music, perhaps leaning towards avante garde, but blues is a time capsule with only a few true subgenres whereas rock is a whole other species of music.

I showed this quote to a friend of mine who is a Professor of Music..he said for this to be true..it would mean metal guitarist did not and do not listen to Jimi Hendrix or Eric Clapton, clearly we know they do.

Thank you all for your contributions and ideas. I will look into those links.

To All the Haters on the Internet
No more Candy 4 U
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #6 posted 07/25/18 4:25pm

Musician9

DonRants said:

Musician9 said:

Metal and all of its subgenres are completely independent from the blues, as is most hard rock and other forms. They would have developed irregardless of American blues rock and British blues. Metal stems from classical influences. Of course some rock genres emerged from the blues, but to me that's mostly sixties acts, while in the 70s you got progressive rock that had no basis in the blues or even classical roots, to me it's just good music, perhaps leaning towards avante garde, but blues is a time capsule with only a few true subgenres whereas rock is a whole other species of music.

I showed this quote to a friend of mine who is a Professor of Music..he said for this to be true..it would mean metal guitarist did not and do not listen to Jimi Hendrix or Eric Clapton, clearly we know they do.

Thank you all for your contributions and ideas. I will look into those links.

Well, sorry to disagree with your Prof, but the Dave Mustaine's and Yngwie Malmasteen's of the world do not list either of those players as influences, having said that, even if they like thos eplayers it doesn't mean it's present in their style. For example, I love Alan Holdsworth but nothing in his playing is present in my style, mostly because his stuff is extremely intricate in nature, but I enjoy his music. There's this weird worship of the Blues, and I'm a blues player myself, that contends that every music style known to man from the 20th century onwards owes everything to it, and I just have to disagree. Plenty of documentation to show numerous American styles developing simultaneously in the South. Remember, without Celtic folk, i.e. Scottish and Irish laborers working alongside the former slaves there would be no Blues at all, that's a great study that doesn't get its proper due, but none of my argument takes anything away from the Blues, it's wonderful, marvelous, earthy and occasionally boring, but fun to play for beginners. My 2 cents worth... I wish you well on your musical journey...

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #7 posted 07/26/18 6:12am

jjhunsecker

avatar

DonRants said:



Musician9 said:


Metal and all of its subgenres are completely independent from the blues, as is most hard rock and other forms. They would have developed irregardless of American blues rock and British blues. Metal stems from classical influences. Of course some rock genres emerged from the blues, but to me that's mostly sixties acts, while in the 70s you got progressive rock that had no basis in the blues or even classical roots, to me it's just good music, perhaps leaning towards avante garde, but blues is a time capsule with only a few true subgenres whereas rock is a whole other species of music.


I showed this quote to a friend of mine who is a Professor of Music..he said for this to be true..it would mean metal guitarist did not and do not listen to Jimi Hendrix or Eric Clapton, clearly we know they do.



Thank you all for your contributions and ideas. I will look into those links.




The most influential guitarists were Hendrix, Clapton, Jeff Beck, and Jimmy Page. The only Heavy Metal that appeals to me has an obvious blues base. Once it moved further from a blues influence, it sounded like "wankery" to my ears.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #8 posted 07/26/18 6:46am

peedub

avatar

let's not conflate 'influence' and 'evolve from'...

you really needn't listen much further than led zeppelin's discography, or black sabbath's or even just the who's 'young man's blues' to realize that heavy metal has a direct lineage to the blues...who dave mustaine listened to or didn't kinda has nothing to do with the evolution of the genre. it had been established before he ever dropped a needle on a record...

that's not to imply that metal hasn't evolved away from blues.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #9 posted 07/26/18 8:39am

2freaky4church
1

avatar

Amplification.

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #10 posted 07/26/18 8:56am

peedub

avatar

2freaky4church1 said:

Amplification.



LET'S NOT CONFLATE 'INFLUENCE' WITH' EVOLVE FROM!

YOU REALLY NEEDN'T LISTEN MUCH FURTHER THAN LED ZEPPELIN'S DISCOGRAPHY, OR BLACK SABBATH'S OR EVEN JUST THE WHO'S 'YOUNG MAN'S BLUES' TO REALIZE THAT HEAVY METAL HAS A DIRECT LINEAGE TO THE BLUES! WHO DAVE MUSTAINE LISTENED TO OR DIDN'T KINDA HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE EVOLUTION OF THE GENRE! IT HAD BEEN ESTABLISHED BEFORE HE EVER DROPPED A NEEDLE ON A RECORD!

THAT'S NOT TO IMPLY THAT METAL HASN'T EVOLVED AWAY FROM THE BLUES!

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #11 posted 07/26/18 11:09am

DonRants

LOL..I love that ..amplification and you start shouting..LOL.

I don't think I used the word "evolve". The word I used was morph..which is my way of saying how does one thing become something else..so you could say "influence."

I agree with your take..yes..Metal definitely is not just a re-do of the blues...I even agree somewhat with what Musicians9 said. The problem with his/her original statements was phrases like"completely independent of the blues" and "would have developed regardless"....those statements are too extreme and by their extreme nature are therefore not true.

Also his statements about the influence of classical forms..definately on the money.

Lets make this easier..lets put it in terms of artist and bands chronologically.

For example:

Robert Johnson -> Muddy Waters _> CHUCK BERRY _> JIMI hENDRIX -> vAN hALEN -> ETC.

Please share your artists. Start with blues and end with rock/hard rock/heavy metal. Thanks.

[Edited 7/26/18 18:47pm]

To All the Haters on the Internet
No more Candy 4 U
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #12 posted 07/26/18 11:46am

MickyDolenz

avatar

Rhythm & blues/rock n' roll/soul (called "race music" in the beginning) also developed from gospel music. Technically a lot of early rock was really R&B made by white people, sort of like the later term "blue eyed soul". Some of the white artists had hits on the R&B chart in Billboard like Elvis, Jerry Lee Lewis, and Conway Twitty. Rock had country in it too, especially rockabilly. Some early R&B songs were originally gospel songs with the lyrics changed. Many early R&B/soul (called "race music" at the time) and some rock n' roll singers originally made gospel records or came from a church choir background. Elvis Presley went to black churches and his background singers The Jordanaires were a gospel vocal group. Little Richard quit secular music at the height of his fame to become a preacher. Little Richard got some of his vocal style from gospel singer Marion Williams. The fathers of Sam Cooke & Aretha Franklin were preachers. Both blues and country & western had influence from Hawaiian music, which was really popular in the USA circa the 1920s. That's where the slide guitar sound came from.

For 65 years straight, the #1 genre in music, selling wise, was rock n' roll worldwide. Last year (2017) in June, it got de-crowned by hip hop. Hip hop is the #1 genre. It's hip hop - rock - country - pop or pop - country. ~ Pras
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #13 posted 07/26/18 12:29pm

novabrkr

Musician9 said:

DonRants said:

I showed this quote to a friend of mine who is a Professor of Music..he said for this to be true..it would mean metal guitarist did not and do not listen to Jimi Hendrix or Eric Clapton, clearly we know they do.

Thank you all for your contributions and ideas. I will look into those links.

Well, sorry to disagree with your Prof, but the Dave Mustaine's and Yngwie Malmasteen's of the world do not list either of those players as influences, having said that, even if they like thos eplayers it doesn't mean it's present in their style. For example, I love Alan Holdsworth but nothing in his playing is present in my style, mostly because his stuff is extremely intricate in nature, but I enjoy his music. There's this weird worship of the Blues, and I'm a blues player myself, that contends that every music style known to man from the 20th century onwards owes everything to it, and I just have to disagree. Plenty of documentation to show numerous American styles developing simultaneously in the South. Remember, without Celtic folk, i.e. Scottish and Irish laborers working alongside the former slaves there would be no Blues at all, that's a great study that doesn't get its proper due, but none of my argument takes anything away from the Blues, it's wonderful, marvelous, earthy and occasionally boring, but fun to play for beginners. My 2 cents worth... I wish you well on your musical journey...

Yngwie Malmsteen is a huge Jimi Hendrix fan, has performed covers of his songs and considers Jimi his main influence as a guitarist.

I'm no fan of Yngwie Malmsteen myself, but he's definitely incorporated blues into his music.

[Edited 7/26/18 12:45pm]

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #14 posted 07/26/18 1:28pm

bobzilla77

I'm thinking you probably want to read Deep Blues by Robert Palmer and Lost Highways by Peter Guralnick.

How did metal evolve? It's a whole different thing. Certainly modern metal has moved far away from the blues base. Some people want to believe it is evolved from totally European sources. But that ignores Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin at the roots, both of which started out as essentially heavy blues bands. The form has changed a lot but I don't see how you cut off from those roots.

The Metlocalyse episode where they go back to the Mississippi Delta to learn the blues is very instructive also.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #15 posted 07/26/18 6:46pm

DonRants

novabrkr said:

Musician9 said:

Well, sorry to disagree with your Prof, but the Dave Mustaine's and Yngwie Malmasteen's of the world do not list either of those players as influences, having said that, even if they like thos eplayers it doesn't mean it's present in their style.

Yngwie Malmsteen is a huge Jimi Hendrix fan, has performed covers of his songs and considers Jimi his main influence as a guitarist.

Decided to do a little youtube search. Here is Yngwie Malmasteen refering to Jijmi Hendrix as the "Jesus of Rock guitar".."He was a revelation".."the reason I want to start playing guitar in the first place." There are lots of clips on youtube of him doing Jimi Hendrix covers as well.

[Edited 7/26/18 18:48pm]

To All the Haters on the Internet
No more Candy 4 U
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #16 posted 07/27/18 7:51am

jjhunsecker

avatar

bobzilla77 said:

I'm thinking you probably want to read Deep Blues by Robert Palmer and Lost Highways by Peter Guralnick.

How did metal evolve? It's a whole different thing. Certainly modern metal has moved far away from the blues base. Some people want to believe it is evolved from totally European sources. But that ignores Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin at the roots, both of which started out as essentially heavy blues bands. The form has changed a lot but I don't see how you cut off from those roots.

The Metlocalyse episode where they go back to the Mississippi Delta to learn the blues is very instructive also.

Another interesting book (not as good as Palmer or Guralnick) is "Crossroads" by John Milward which details how electric blues slipped into rock, with emphasis on Paul Butterfield, John Mayall, the Rolling Stones, the Yardbirds, Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, Michael Bloomfield, Jimi Hendrix, and others from the 60s and 70s and beyond

[Edited 7/27/18 9:26am]

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #17 posted 07/27/18 8:44am

S2DG

The best advice I could give is to spend the time and listen to EVERYTHING in order of when it was made. While doing that, read EVERYTHING you can get your hands on and watch interviews with the artists.

Most artists have no problem talking about their influences and what aspects made them take it to the next level that subsequently the next generation would build on.

College classes taught me how music began and shaped my understanding in regards to it's history and development. Just like History itself, Music is a never ending study to those who want to go beyond just a listener.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #18 posted 07/27/18 11:20am

bobzilla77

jjhunsecker said:

bobzilla77 said:

I'm thinking you probably want to read Deep Blues by Robert Palmer and Lost Highways by Peter Guralnick.

How did metal evolve? It's a whole different thing. Certainly modern metal has moved far away from the blues base. Some people want to believe it is evolved from totally European sources. But that ignores Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin at the roots, both of which started out as essentially heavy blues bands. The form has changed a lot but I don't see how you cut off from those roots.

The Metlocalyse episode where they go back to the Mississippi Delta to learn the blues is very instructive also.

Another interesting book (not as good as Palmer or Guralnick) is "Crossroads" by John Milward which details how electric blues slipped into rock, with emphasis on Paul Butterfield, John Mayall, the Rolling Stones, the Yardbirds, Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, Michael Bloomfield, Jimi Hendrix, and others from the 60s and 70s and beyond

[Edited 7/27/18 9:26am]

.

Yeah that sounds like it goes even more to the point of what the OP is looking for. Haven't read it myself yet.

.

It's tough to chart musical evolution in a clean way because so much of it is just individual weirdos, deciding to mix a little bit of this with a little bit of that, and then getting that new hybrid into the world, where other weirdos will pick up on it and add their own things to it.

.

I still think the reason that 60s rock is so interesting and varied, is because the people making it didn't grow up listening to rock. They all had their own unique histories of what kind of sounds were meaningful to them. Lots of them were into American blues and R&B but then, they all had their own things, probably related to what their parents liked. So all these people working in the same little corner of the music scene had really varied backgrounds, and had to create rock out of nothing.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #19 posted 07/27/18 7:37pm

Hamad

avatar

When Jimi Hendrix picked up the guitar.

Every saint has a past, and every sinner has a future...
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #20 posted 07/30/18 4:54pm

TheOriginalBro
thaFiness

Funny how no one mentioned Big Mama Thornton , who Elvis stole Hound Dog from.... It was her that was the Mother of R n R ...

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #21 posted 07/30/18 5:44pm

MickyDolenz

avatar

TheOriginalBrothaFiness said:

Funny how no one mentioned Big Mama Thornton , who Elvis stole Hound Dog from.... It was her that was the Mother of R n R ...

Elvis didn't do her version. He remade the version by Freddie Bell & The Bellboys. They changed the lyrics from the Big Mama version. Anyway, Big Mama's original version was written by white songwriters Leiber & Stoller, who also later wrote songs for Elvis.


For 65 years straight, the #1 genre in music, selling wise, was rock n' roll worldwide. Last year (2017) in June, it got de-crowned by hip hop. Hip hop is the #1 genre. It's hip hop - rock - country - pop or pop - country. ~ Pras
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #22 posted 07/30/18 5:48pm

DonRants

Thanks for the book recommendations!

To All the Haters on the Internet
No more Candy 4 U
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #23 posted 07/31/18 8:41am

TheOriginalBro
thaFiness

MickyDolenz said:

TheOriginalBrothaFiness said:

Funny how no one mentioned Big Mama Thornton , who Elvis stole Hound Dog from.... It was her that was the Mother of R n R ...

Elvis didn't do her version. He remade the version by Freddie Bell & The Bellboys. They changed the lyrics from the Big Mama version. Anyway, Big Mama's original version was written by white songwriters Leiber & Stoller, who also later wrote songs for Elvis.


Not the Point... Elvis was a thief a copycat and a no talent

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #24 posted 07/31/18 8:44am

paisleypark4

avatar

DonRants said:

Hey Guys,

I am tryinhg to trace how Blues music became Rock/Hard Rock/Heavy Meatal. Can anyone recommend websites, books, recordings, documentaries etc. Thanks.


Blues influenced 'rockabilly'. Good Golly Miss Molly, Johnny B. Goode...Tutti Frutti songs like that actually were the influences to rock, not blues itself. Blues had more of an influence on 'rhythm and blues'. The Beatles covering Twist and Shout etc...Elvis then took rockabilly to pop stardom and others just followed. Beatles, Cream, Iron Butterfly, Black Sabbath really took the sounds onward ad outward. Caucasian audiences were highly influenced by these sounds. Black audiences never got into them as much as the Motown Sound and Funk started to rise in those days.

Blues was the influence for rockabilly..then rockabilly turned into rock...then rock turned into hard rock and its other genres.
Its funny that rock started basically in the 50's and didnt get an actual recoginition on the Billboard chart as a genre until 1981. 30 years!!

Download all the shit hop that you can for your kids, neices, nephews, and their friends also. That will prevent them from going out and buying it and will prevent some shit hop sales. Every little bit helps - Andy
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemus
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #25 posted 07/31/18 9:39am

jjhunsecker

avatar

TheOriginalBrothaFiness said:

MickyDolenz said:

Elvis didn't do her version. He remade the version by Freddie Bell & The Bellboys. They changed the lyrics from the Big Mama version. Anyway, Big Mama's original version was written by white songwriters Leiber & Stoller, who also later wrote songs for Elvis.


Not the Point... Elvis was a thief a copycat and a no talent

Elvis was one of the greatest singers of all time. All artists are influenced by someone. And Elvis was raised in an environment where all this music- Blues, R&B, Gospel, Country, Pop- were played all around him, and he absorbed them all into his own style.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #26 posted 07/31/18 9:44am

jjhunsecker

avatar

DonRants said:

Thanks for the book recommendations!

Another great book about the evolution of various styles into Rock is "Rock and Roll- an Unruly History" by the late Robert Palmer, which was the companion to an excellent PBS series in the 1990s. Palmer also mentions other influences of rock that are not often mentioned, like Latin music and Gospel, as well as Blues, R&B, and Country

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #27 posted 08/01/18 8:25am

jjhunsecker

avatar

For those who want to see how the Blues morphed into Rock, here's an upcoming collection of Blues songs curated by the Rolling Stones, including all songs that were actually covered by the Stones throughout their career,

https://therollingstoness...-blues-2cd

“If you don't know the blues... there's no point in picking up the guitar and playing rock and roll or any other form of popular music.” – Keith Richards


As well as being the biggest band in the world, The Rolling Stones are also the biggest champions of the blues, so who better to curate a compilation in collaboration with BMG and Universal, of the music that inspired them throughout their career?

Confessin’ The Blues collects together the greatest bluesmen ever and provides a perfect education to the genre. The tracklisting on the various formats have been chosen by The Rolling Stones, in collaboration with BMG and Universal and will be released on BMG on November 9.

The Rolling Stones have long been supporters of the Blues from before the start of their career right through to their latest album, Blue & Lonesome which featured their interpretations of the classics, many of which appear in their original versions here on Confessin’ The Blues. Mick Jagger was an early fan of the Blues: “The first Muddy Waters album that was really popular was Muddy Waters at Newport, which was the first album I ever bought”.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #28 posted 08/01/18 10:00pm

DonRants

jjhunsecker said:

https://therollingstoness...-blues-2cd

“If you don't know the blues... there's no point in picking up the guitar and playing rock and roll or any other form of popular music.” – Keith Richards

Thank you... Looks like an awesome collection.

To All the Haters on the Internet
No more Candy 4 U
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #29 posted 08/02/18 4:17pm

noobman

2045RadicalMattZ said:

I was just going to say EARTH --> BLACK SABBATH for metal. But metal is steeped in medieval and psychedelic bands. Modern metal has changed somewhat. But one cannot underestimate the effect that Tony Iommi's chopped off finger tips had for modern music. plus he's a maestro of the riff.

This! cool

And Earth was definitely blues-based.

So the transition from blues->metal is right there from Earth->Sabbath.

And all metal is influenced by Sabbath one way or another.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Page 1 of 2 12>
  New topic   Printable     (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Forums > Music: Non-Prince > How did Blues morph into Rock/Hard Rock/Heavy Metal