purple05 said:

nextedition said:

In de documentary "Can I be me" its said that one of the most upsetting things for Whitney had to go through is being booed by a black audience at the Soul Train Awards.

People felt she was a sell out for whatever reason. So from there it seems she tried to compensate for her image

Because she did not do "black" music. They went after Dionne Warwick the same way. Dionne just gave them the finger. Whitney gave into the pressure. But she was already indulging in things that no matter your ethnicity of gender brought her to her end. Michael Jackson & Prince had medical issues. Whitney's was emotional. I don't know if her being (bisexual) is true or not, but if it is, that internal struggle would play a big part in her substance issues.

.

But Madonna outlasted Whitney because Whitney died of drug/health complications.
.
Whitney was Americas sweetheart, with all her issues, people were rooting for Whitney.

cloveringold85 said:

CynicKill said:

Mariah suffered from what was a supposed breakdown.

She hasn't found a F to give since, and I kinda admire her for that.

.

I was surprised she sang at times square for new years eve, considering the backlash she got last year. I think she did a great job, considering she didn't have her hot tea.

She knew she had to bounce back from that. She couldn't leave her image there.
And being a New Yorker, NYC does love her.

namepeace said:

purple05 said:

MJ, Prince & Whitney sadly passed so young. Since we don't know any of these people, there are no definite answers only guesses. With that said, Madonna is the least talented of her peers but it seems she didn't let the pressure of the business get to her like they did.

I personally think she wasn't held to the sane standard. There was no pressure to be perfect because quite honestly people were shocked that she was still around. Even if she had drug problems, she'd never be made into a laughing stock like MJ and Whitney were. Many black artist just aren't given the same room to mess up like their white counterparts are.

Overall I think it's the pressure. Pressure from fans and society as well as from family. MJ and Whitney also had messed up family situations that let to their demise. Prince it's hard to pinpoint because at the moment not much is known

As I see it:

Madonna was more adept at reshaping her public image; she was a marketing genius.

Prince constantly reshaped his sound and his look. But his public image remained largely static throughout his career.

MJ, imo, was almost trapped by his megastar status. He was and is famous in ways maybe only 5 people could understand. This kept his public image largely static as well.

Her race was arguably a factor in being able to do things Prince and MJ couldn't/didn't do. Seems like she had more latitude to morph into whatever she needed to morph into to sell records and hold the public's attention. So maybe she wasn't as artistically driven as Prince, or as trapped by her own success as MJ.

Bruce being in that top group too, never changed his image. But his visuals did influence his stardom going along with his music.
.
I agree with you, about the reshaping of their public image.

.

What I saw with Madonna throught her career, that Prince didn't do after the 80s and I don't think Michael ever really did, was she reinterpreted things happening in society through the music and her shows. Prrince never really did that. He continued to play with the struggle between God & Sex, but that became static after 89. Prince's religiousity played a big part in him not being as fluid as he was in the 80s. And after 2000 his look did not change much for almost 10yrs.

.

With Michael Jackson, I think Off The Wall was the closest he came to a 'social expression'. That 1970s break away from your life and live thing that was heard in all genres of music.

.

I don't know if Madonna's race played into it as much as her gender. Women are allowed to be more diverse and colorful in a way that men get a hard time for. Think of the Lovesexy album cover. The 1970s and 80s allowed men to be more colorful and androgenous and morph a lot but by the time the 90s came around that was over. For a woman to change up a lot was still ok, but for someone like Prince(especially) it worked against him and made him 'freaky'. For Michael Jackson, if he still looked like he did during Thriller, or even Bad, he would not have taken on the weird catagory. His style was masculine enough that it did not matter. And of course Bruce was still jeans tshirts and leather jackets. Which is always an overall accepted masculine dress route.

OldFriends4Sale said:

namepeace said:

As I see it:

Madonna was more adept at reshaping her public image; she was a marketing genius.

Prince constantly reshaped his sound and his look. But his public image remained largely static throughout his career.

MJ, imo, was almost trapped by his megastar status. He was and is famous in ways maybe only 5 people could understand. This kept his public image largely static as well.

Her race was arguably a factor in being able to do things Prince and MJ couldn't/didn't do. Seems like she had more latitude to morph into whatever she needed to morph into to sell records and hold the public's attention. So maybe she wasn't as artistically driven as Prince, or as trapped by her own success as MJ.

Bruce being in that top group too, never changed his image. But his visuals did influence his stardom going along with his music.

You're clearly right. Bruce didn't change his image, he just enhanced it for the MTV era.

I agree with you, about the reshaping of their public image.

.

What I saw with Madonna throught her career, that Prince didn't do after the 80s and I don't think Michael ever really did was she reinterpreted things happening in society through the music and her shows. Prrince never really did that. He continued to play with the struggle between God & Sex, but that became static after 89. Prince's religiousity played a big part in him not being as fluid as he was in the 80s. And after 2000 he look did not change much for almost 10yrs.

.

With Michael Jackson, I think Off The Wall was the closest he came to a 'social expression'. That 1970s break away from your life and live thing that was heard in all genres of music.

You're right; that expands very well on what I'm saying.
.

I don't know if Madonna's race played into it as much as her gender. Women are allowed to be more diverse and colorful in a way that men get a hard time for. Think of the Lovesexy album cover. The 1970s and 80s allowed men to be more colorful and androgenous and morph a lot by by the time the 90s came around that was over. For a woman to change up a lot was still ok, but for someone like Prince(especially) it worked against him and made him 'freaky'. For Michael Jackson, if he still looked like he did during Thriller, or even Bad, he would not have taken on the weird catagory. His style was masculine enough that it did not matter. And of course Bruce was still jeans tshirts and leather jackets. Which is always an overall accepted masculine dress route.

While I think Madge's race was a factor, because it has always been in music, I do embrace your points on gender. She had a liberating (some conservatives of the time and now may say libertine), adventurous, but independent image. To her credit, in the 80's she maybe more than any other act shaped how women "expressed themselves" as self-possessed (meant in a good way) confident individuals. Janet did so to a great degree as well.

OldFriends4Sale said:

namepeace said:

As I see it:

Madonna was more adept at reshaping her public image; she was a marketing genius.

Prince constantly reshaped his sound and his look. But his public image remained largely static throughout his career.

MJ, imo, was almost trapped by his megastar status. He was and is famous in ways maybe only 5 people could understand. This kept his public image largely static as well.

Her race was arguably a factor in being able to do things Prince and MJ couldn't/didn't do. Seems like she had more latitude to morph into whatever she needed to morph into to sell records and hold the public's attention. So maybe she wasn't as artistically driven as Prince, or as trapped by her own success as MJ.

Bruce being in that top group too, never changed his image. But his visuals did influence his stardom going along with his music.
.
I agree with you, about the reshaping of their public image.

.

What I saw with Madonna throught her career, that Prince didn't do after the 80s and I don't think Michael ever really did was she reinterpreted things happening in society through the music and her shows. Prince never really did that. He continued to play with the struggle between God & Sex, but that became static after 89. Prince's religiousity played a big part in him not being as fluid as he was in the 80s. And after 2000 he look did not change much for almost 10yrs.

.

With Michael Jackson, I think Off The Wall was the closest he came to a 'social expression'. That 1970s break away from your life and live thing that was heard in all genres of music.

.

I don't know if Madonna's race played into it as much as her gender. Women are allowed to be more diverse and colorful in a way that men get a hard time for. Think of the Lovesexy album cover. The 1970s and 80s allowed men to be more colorful and androgenous and morph a lot but by the time the 90s came around that was over. For a woman to change up a lot was still ok, but for someone like Prince(especially) it worked against him and made him 'freaky'. For Michael Jackson, if he still looked like he did during Thriller, or even Bad, he would not have taken on the weird catagory. His style was masculine enough that it did not matter. And of course Bruce was still jeans tshirts and leather jackets. Which is always an overall accepted masculine dress route.

Would you mind to explain a little further, I don't get it.

214 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Bruce being in that top group too, never changed his image. But his visuals did influence his stardom going along with his music.
.
I agree with you, about the reshaping of their public image.

.

What I saw with Madonna throught her career, that Prince didn't do after the 80s and I don't think Michael ever really did was she reinterpreted things happening in society through the music and her shows. Prrince never really did that. He continued to play with the struggle between God & Sex, but that became static after 89. Prince's religiousity played a big part in him not being as fluid as he was in the 80s. And after 2000 he look did not change much for almost 10yrs.

.

With Michael Jackson, I think Off The Wall was the closest he came to a 'social expression'. That 1970s break away from your life and live thing that was heard in all genres of music.

.

I don't know if Madonna's race played into it as much as her gender. Women are allowed to be more diverse and colorful in a way that men get a hard time for. Think of the Lovesexy album cover. The 1970s and 80s allowed men to be more colorful and androgenous and morph a lot by by the time the 90s came around that was over. For a woman to change up a lot was still ok, but for someone like Prince(especially) it worked against him and made him 'freaky'. For Michael Jackson, if he still looked like he did during Thriller, or even Bad, he would not have taken on the weird catagory. His style was masculine enough that it did not matter. And of course Bruce was still jeans tshirts and leather jackets. Which is always an overall accepted masculine dress route.

Would you mind to explain a little further, I don't get it.

The album was Mike official breaking away and doing his thing, living in NYC, hanging out at Studio 54, the Wiz etc I always looked at this period as a social express for Mike

namepeace said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Bruce being in that top group too, never changed his image. But his visuals did influence his stardom going along with his music.

You're clearly right. Bruce didn't change his image, he just enhanced it for the MTV era.

I agree with you, about the reshaping of their public image.

.

What I saw with Madonna throught her career, that Prince didn't do after the 80s and I don't think Michael ever really did was she reinterpreted things happening in society through the music and her shows. Prrince never really did that. He continued to play with the struggle between God & Sex, but that became static after 89. Prince's religiousity played a big part in him not being as fluid as he was in the 80s. And after 2000 he look did not change much for almost 10yrs.

.

With Michael Jackson, I think Off The Wall was the closest he came to a 'social expression'. That 1970s break away from your life and live thing that was heard in all genres of music.

You're right; that expands very well on what I'm saying.
.

I don't know if Madonna's race played into it as much as her gender. Women are allowed to be more diverse and colorful in a way that men get a hard time for. Think of the Lovesexy album cover. The 1970s and 80s allowed men to be more colorful and androgenous and morph a lot by by the time the 90s came around that was over. For a woman to change up a lot was still ok, but for someone like Prince(especially) it worked against him and made him 'freaky'. For Michael Jackson, if he still looked like he did during Thriller, or even Bad, he would not have taken on the weird catagory. His style was masculine enough that it did not matter. And of course Bruce was still jeans tshirts and leather jackets. Which is always an overall accepted masculine dress route.

While I think Madge's race was a factor, because it has always been in music, I do embrace your points on gender. She had a liberating (some conservatives of the time and now may say libertine), adventurous, but independent image. To her credit, in the 80's she maybe more than any other act shaped how women "expressed themselves" as self-possessed (meant in a good way) confident individuals. Janet did so to a great degree as well.

I think her race did play a part, not as much as a 'white' woman but an Italian-American woman.
It was all in her music and style etc She touch on subjects like pregnancy and (not) getting an abortion, being an Italian-Catholic, she did a lot of stuff that angered the Catholic church. She sure did stir up a lot of things in a long period of her career.

.

Yes Janet as well did it to a degree. I think Janet got caught in a repetitive mode after Velvet Rope.

She didn't deal with social issues like in the first 4 albums. And you could expect her to orgasm on a song or two every album.

Madge was never number one in any single one of the talent categories she inhabited ... best dancer, best singer, best songwriter, etc ... no, no and no.

However, adding up where she sits across all of the categories, overall she's highest amongst her peers ... that's how I see it. And in some of those categories she's actually quite high. Live shows, one of the best. Business savvy, genius. Ability to reinvent, not many can match her.

OldFriends4Sale said:

214 said:

Would you mind to explain a little further, I don't get it.

The album was Mike official breaking away and doing his thing, living in NYC, hanging out at Studio 54, the Wiz etc I always looked at this period as a social express for Mike

Get it now is like his emancipation album, the song that expresses it much better is the title track, don't you think ?

DaveT said:

Madge was never number one in any single one of the talent categories she inhabited ... best dancer, best singer, best songwriter, etc ... no, no and no.

However, adding up where she sits across all of the categories, overall she's highest amongst her peers ... that's how I see it. And in some of those categories she's actually quite high. Live shows, one of the best. Business savvy, genius. Ability to reinvent, not many can match her.

Indeed, it's the sum of her parts or somethin alike.

[Edited 1/12/18 16:19pm]

OldFriends4Sale said:

namepeace said:

I think her race did play a part, not as much as a 'white' woman but an Italian-American woman.
It was all in her music and style etc She touch on subjects like pregnancy and (not) getting an abortion, being an Italian-Catholic, she did a lot of stuff that angered the Catholic church. She sure did stir up a lot of things in a long period of her career.

.

Yes Janet as well did it to a degree. I think Janet got caught in a repetitive mode after Velvet Rope.

She didn't deal with social issues like in the first 4 albums. And you could expect her to orgasm on a song or two every album.

While I do think race was a broader factor than ethnicity -- and let's face it, it always has been in rock and roll -- you definitely are right that her stage name played into to her Catholic roots in a very subversive sense. Throughout her early career, she used Catholic imagery to provoke. Many in the Church took the bait and went after her. (I was in Catholic schools through that time, and she never lacked for devoted fans there.) But "Papa Don't Preach" was actually quite Catholic in tone.

214 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

The album was Mike official breaking away and doing his thing, living in NYC, hanging out at Studio 54, the Wiz etc I always looked at this period as a social express for Mike

Get it now is like his emancipation album, the song that expresses it much better is the title track, don't you think ?

I always looked at all that at his own personal musical battle. I don't know if it was the same break out like MJ's Off the Wall. More like Mariah Carey's 'The Emancipation of Mimi'

namepeace said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I think her race did play a part, not as much as a 'white' woman but an Italian-American woman.
It was all in her music and style etc She touch on subjects like pregnancy and (not) getting an abortion, being an Italian-Catholic, she did a lot of stuff that angered the Catholic church. She sure did stir up a lot of things in a long period of her career.

.

Yes Janet as well did it to a degree. I think Janet got caught in a repetitive mode after Velvet Rope.

She didn't deal with social issues like in the first 4 albums. And you could expect her to orgasm on a song or two every album.

While I do think race was a broader factor than ethnicity -- and let's face it, it always has been in rock and roll -- you definitely are right that her stage name played into to her Catholic roots in a very subversive sense. Throughout her early career, she used Catholic imagery to provoke. Many in the Church took the bait and went after her. (I was in Catholic schools through that time, and she never lacked for devoted fans there.) But "Papa Don't Preach" was actually quite Catholic in tone.

Yes, but I think for women it was still harder, no matter their race. Which is why I say gender over race. I think with 'rock n roll' women had a harder time like they they did with rap. Being black or mixed didn't make it easy for female rappers.

But like you said that 'suversive sense' moved her quickly out of the 'pop' female singer, to someone more controversial. From Like A Virgin - True Blue and Blond Ambition - Bedtime Stories Ray of Light - Confessions on the Dancefloor, she proved her superstardom status for sure.

.

RnB / Jazz / Gospel / Folk I suspect race and gender were a lot easier to gain fame

.

Yes 'Papa Don't Preach' was definately quite Catholic (she was directing that to the Papa ie Pope) from an 'Italian-American' Catholic perspective -playing the daughter of Danny Aiello.

.

The song also caused her first conflict with the Vatican, as she dedicated it to Pope John Paul II, who urged Italian fans to boycott her concerts during the Who's That Girl World Tour in 1987.

she got more "balls"?

Staying current. Hearing the streets.

2freaky4church1 said:

Staying current. Hearing the streets.

Translation. Hires the current "hot" producer of the moment.

Graycap23 said:

2freaky4church1 said:

Staying current. Hearing the streets.

Translation. Hires the current "hot" producer of the moment.

Name me a big act that didn't have important collaborators? ... The Beatles, Bowie, MJ, Elvis ... they all worked with other producers, writers, and/or musicians. Hell, even Prince had some now and again; look what Wendy and Lisa contributed to Purple Rain.

DaveT said:

Graycap23 said:

Translation. Hires the current "hot" producer of the moment.

Name me a big act that didn't have important collaborators? ... The Beatles, Bowie, MJ, Elvis ... they all worked with other producers, writers, and/or musicians. Hell, even Prince had some now and again; look what Wendy and Lisa contributed to Purple Rain.

Not to mention Clare Fischer and other less obvious musicians like David Coleman Novi Novog Suzi Katayama etc

Graycap23 said:

2freaky4church1 said:

Staying current. Hearing the streets.

Translation. Hires the current "hot" producer of the moment.

nothing wrong with that. Especially since she knows of them because she is into their music.
Also a lot of those current 'hot' producers were more underground, like Jellybean Benitez and some of the people who worked with her on Ray of Light of Confessions on the Dancefloor.
She was always a part of that NYC/Underground/Night Club scene

OldFriends4Sale said:

Graycap23 said:

Translation. Hires the current "hot" producer of the moment.

nothing wrong with that. Especially since she knows of them because she is into their music.
Also a lot of those current 'hot' producers were more underground, like Jellybean Benitez and some of the people who worked with her on Ray of Light of Confessions on the Dancefloor.
She was always a part of that NYC/Underground/Night Club scene

Exactly. I lot of the producers she worked with became 'hot producers' after she worked with them. Until they worked with her, they were relatively unknown or 'underground' (eg Mirwais, Stuart Price, William Orbit). The most well-known producer she worked with in the 80's was Nile Rogers. Steve Bray and Patrick Leonard, her other 80's producers, were, and still are, known mainly for their work with Madonna. If you look at most her producers through the years, they tend to have remixed her work and then she has co-produced with them (Jellybean, Shep Pettibone, Junior Vasquez, Sasha, William Orbit, Stuart Price, Benny Benassi).

OldFriends4Sale said:

Graycap23 said:

Translation. Hires the current "hot" producer of the moment.

nothing wrong with that. Especially since she knows of them because she is into their music.
Also a lot of those current 'hot' producers were more underground, like Jellybean Benitez and some of the people who worked with her on Ray of Light of Confessions on the Dancefloor.
She was always a part of that NYC/Underground/Night Club scene

That isn't "hearing the streets".......That is hiring the producers HEARD in the streets.

There is a difference.

Graycap23 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

nothing wrong with that. Especially since she knows of them because she is into their music.
Also a lot of those current 'hot' producers were more underground, like Jellybean Benitez and some of the people who worked with her on Ray of Light of Confessions on the Dancefloor.
She was always a part of that NYC/Underground/Night Club scene

That isn't "hearing the streets".......That is hiring the producers HEARD in the streets.

There is a difference.

She was always in the clubs the underground and hanging with 'regular' people who were

She was/is a part of NYC

she lived the streets of NYC

Graycap23 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

nothing wrong with that. Especially since she knows of them because she is into their music.
Also a lot of those current 'hot' producers were more underground, like Jellybean Benitez and some of the people who worked with her on Ray of Light of Confessions on the Dancefloor.
She was always a part of that NYC/Underground/Night Club scene

That isn't "hearing the streets".......That is hiring the producers HEARD in the streets.

There is a difference.

.

The difference is when Jay-Z does it for 20 years its epic, legendary, etc. and when Madonna does it she isn't "like Jay-Z" so she is faking/stealing/fronting. IMO Madonna could make records in 18 with Stuart or Mirwais that would be just as hot as the old stuff same as if Jay-Z did tracks again with DJ Premier or Just Blaze.

rlittler81 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

nothing wrong with that. Especially since she knows of them because she is into their music.
Also a lot of those current 'hot' producers were more underground, like Jellybean Benitez and some of the people who worked with her on Ray of Light of Confessions on the Dancefloor.
She was always a part of that NYC/Underground/Night Club scene

Exactly. I lot of the producers she worked with became 'hot producers' after she worked with them. Until they worked with her, they were relatively unknown or 'underground' (eg Mirwais, Stuart Price, William Orbit). The most well-known producer she worked with in the 80's was Nile Rogers. Steve Bray and Patrick Leonard, her other 80's producers, were, and still are, known mainly for their work with Madonna. If you look at most her producers through the years, they tend to have remixed her work and then she has co-produced with them (Jellybean, Shep Pettibone, Junior Vasquez, Sasha, William Orbit, Stuart Price, Benny Benassi).

add Babyface

but all the others, she helped put on the map and that is a canon of great music

she knew who she had to bang....

rlittler81 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

nothing wrong with that. Especially since she knows of them because she is into their music.
Also a lot of those current 'hot' producers were more underground, like Jellybean Benitez and some of the people who worked with her on Ray of Light of Confessions on the Dancefloor.
She was always a part of that NYC/Underground/Night Club scene

Exactly. I lot of the producers she worked with became 'hot producers' after she worked with them. Until they worked with her, they were relatively unknown or 'underground' (eg Mirwais, Stuart Price, William Orbit). The most well-known producer she worked with in the 80's was Nile Rogers. Steve Bray and Patrick Leonard, her other 80's producers, were, and still are, known mainly for their work with Madonna. If you look at most her producers through the years, they tend to have remixed her work and then she has co-produced with them (Jellybean, Shep Pettibone, Junior Vasquez, Sasha, William Orbit, Stuart Price, Benny Benassi).

Preach to the choir boy/ girl.

StrangeButTrue said:

Graycap23 said:

That isn't "hearing the streets".......That is hiring the producers HEARD in the streets.

There is a difference.

.

The difference is when Jay-Z does it for 20 years its epic, legendary, etc. and when Madonna does it she isn't "like Jay-Z" so she is faking/stealing/fronting. IMO Madonna could make records in 18 with Stuart or Mirwais that would be just as hot as the old stuff same as if Jay-Z did tracks again with DJ Premier or Just Blaze.

lol...Jay-Z? U are exactly right they are equally lame.

luvsexy4all said:

she knew who she had to bang....

I'll assume you are just messing around

Graycap23 said:

StrangeButTrue said:

.

The difference is when Jay-Z does it for 20 years its epic, legendary, etc. and when Madonna does it she isn't "like Jay-Z" so she is faking/stealing/fronting. IMO Madonna could make records in 18 with Stuart or Mirwais that would be just as hot as the old stuff same as if Jay-Z did tracks again with DJ Premier or Just Blaze.

lol...Jay-Z? U are exactly right they are equally lame.

Are you a musician or singer?