SoftSkarlettLovisa said:

Don't get me wrong. I love Michael Jackson, like millions on this earth. Of course, he made some of the greatest music ever.

However, when I see clips of people fainting and crying at the sight of him and had to be carried away by ambulence ... honestly, it's a little cringey.

Yeah, I don't know how I'd react if I ever met Michael Jackson (if he was still alive), but still wasn't his celebrity status a little overrated?

If you did not experience the THRILLER - BAD period, then you might not understand it

Just like Prince. If people missed the 1999-SOTT period, but more specifically the 1982-1986 period and definately the 1984-1985 period, they might not understand

bonatoc said:

MD431Madcat said:

Fact!

Prince Grew up an MJ Fan.

I agree. Not contesting that.
I'm just thinking that, if Michael is without a doubt a genius,
what superlative is left for Prince?

The fact that Prince left behind him a work much more substantial that Michael doesn't mean that Michael had less talent. The thing is, Prince had it all.

If fame was defined by sheer capacities and the volume of the work accomplished, then it's not that Michael doesn't deserve his success, rather it's Prince who didn't receive the one he was rightfully entitled to.

I think Prince was a much better musician than Jackson and both were great artists.

bonatoc said:

MD431Madcat said:

Fact!

Prince Grew up an MJ Fan.

I agree. Not contesting that.
I'm just thinking that, if Michael is without a doubt a genius,
what superlative is left for Prince?

The fact that Prince left behind him a work much more substantial that Michael doesn't mean that Michael had less talent. The thing is, Prince had it all.

If fame was defined by sheer capacities and the volume of the work accomplished, then it's not that Michael doesn't deserve his success, rather it's Prince who didn't receive the one he was rightfully entitled to.

In fact, this is the case with Prince. He criminally underrated, his music has been unfairly neglected, much more outside the US. Here in Mexico very few people know who he is, let alone listening his music.

214 said:

In fact, this is the case with Prince. He criminally underrated, his music has been unfairly neglected, much more outside the US. Here in Mexico very few people know who he is, let alone listening his music.

I've heard Morrissey is popular in Mexico, which seems kind of random to me.

MickyDolenz said:

214 said:

In fact, this is the case with Prince. He criminally underrated, his music has been unfairly neglected, much more outside the US. Here in Mexico very few people know who he is, let alone listening his music.

I've heard Morrissey is popular in Mexico, which seems kind of random to me.

Don't know about him, but i think he is well known.

214 said:

MickyDolenz said:

I've heard Morrissey is popular in Mexico, which seems kind of random to me.

Don't know about him, but i think he is well known.

Try some of The Smiths. Start with a Best Of and see if something clings.
The first four/five Morrissey solo albums also have their moments.

[Edited 11/29/17 14:49pm]

bonatoc said:

214 said:

Don't know about him, but i think he is well known.

Try some of The Smiths. Start with a Best Of and see if something clings.
The first four/five Morrissey solo albums also have their moments.

[Edited 11/29/17 14:49pm]

Thanks, but YouTube is blocked here.

SoftSkarlettLovisa said:

Don't get me wrong. I love Michael Jackson, like millions on this earth. Of course, he made some of the greatest music ever.

However, when I see clips of people fainting and crying at the sight of him and had to be carried away by ambulence ... honestly, it's a little cringey.

Yeah, I don't know how I'd react if I ever met Michael Jackson (if he was still alive), but still wasn't his celebrity status a little overrated?

TOTALLY overrated. I think Janet is 100x BETTER. Granted, he was a great dancer, but vocally, nothin' special. Too breathy, too hiccuppy, too EVERYTHING that sucks 2 my ears. I don't own a single one of his albums cuz I just don't like his voice. Aside of SOME big hits, there was stuff he did that wasn't even deSERVING of #1 spots (like that pathetic "Girl Is Mine" with McCartney and "I Just Can't Stop Loving You." SERIOUSLY? Oh, and put him in a REAL subway with a red zippered leather jacket and he'd prob'ly would have gotten his ASS kicked. He wasn't BAD at ALL. That whole fantasy of bein' a bad boy was just a little too cringeworthy 4 me. I'm in agreement with u.

if you wasn't moved by some of his performances as a kid(I want you back, Who's lovin' you) then you just don't like good singing. I think he lost a lot as a singer as an adult by trying to stay a child, his voice was too thin because he was too thin, his voice was too high because he made it that high. still, dude was a great singer, dancer/songwriter/ artist.

whitechocolatebrotha said:

SoftSkarlettLovisa said:

Don't get me wrong. I love Michael Jackson, like millions on this earth. Of course, he made some of the greatest music ever.

However, when I see clips of people fainting and crying at the sight of him and had to be carried away by ambulence ... honestly, it's a little cringey.

Yeah, I don't know how I'd react if I ever met Michael Jackson (if he was still alive), but still wasn't his celebrity status a little overrated?

TOTALLY overrated. I think Janet is 100x BETTER. Granted, he was a great dancer, but vocally, nothin' special. Too breathy, too hiccuppy, too EVERYTHING that sucks 2 my ears. I don't own a single one of his albums cuz I just don't like his voice. Aside of SOME big hits, there was stuff he did that wasn't even deSERVING of #1 spots (like that pathetic "Girl Is Mine" with McCartney and "I Just Can't Stop Loving You." SERIOUSLY? Oh, and put him in a REAL subway with a red zippered leather jacket and he'd prob'ly would have gotten his ASS kicked. He wasn't BAD at ALL. That whole fantasy of bein' a bad boy was just a little too cringeworthy 4 me. I'm in agreement with u.

whitechocolatebrotha said:

SoftSkarlettLovisa said:

Don't get me wrong. I love Michael Jackson, like millions on this earth. Of course, he made some of the greatest music ever.

However, when I see clips of people fainting and crying at the sight of him and had to be carried away by ambulence ... honestly, it's a little cringey.

Yeah, I don't know how I'd react if I ever met Michael Jackson (if he was still alive), but still wasn't his celebrity status a little overrated?

TOTALLY overrated. I think Janet is 100x BETTER. Granted, he was a great dancer, but vocally, nothin' special. Too breathy, too hiccuppy, too EVERYTHING that sucks 2 my ears. I don't own a single one of his albums cuz I just don't like his voice. Aside of SOME big hits, there was stuff he did that wasn't even deSERVING of #1 spots (like that pathetic "Girl Is Mine" with McCartney and "I Just Can't Stop Loving You." SERIOUSLY? Oh, and put him in a REAL subway with a red zippered leather jacket and he'd prob'ly would have gotten his ASS kicked. He wasn't BAD at ALL. That whole fantasy of bein' a bad boy was just a little too cringeworthy 4 me. I'm in agreement with u.

Yeah....because they were music videos

whitechocolatebrotha said:

You may not care for MJs style or time but vocally he is one of the best singers in popular music history. As an adult and child. #NoDebate
Now what you prefer is something else

PeteSilas said:

His voice had nothing to do with his weight. His voice wasn't thin. But it did lack power in the belting range, if that's what you mean. Outside of that he was one of the best vocalist in modern music.

purple05 said:

PeteSilas said:

if you wasn't moved by some of his performances as a kid(I want you back, Who's lovin' you) then you just don't like good singing. I think he lost a lot as a singer as an adult by trying to stay a child, his voice was too thin because he was too thin, his voice was too high because he made it that high. still, dude was a great singer, dancer/songwriter/ artist.

His voice had nothing to do with his weight. His voice wasn't thin. But it did lack power in the belting range, if that's what you mean. Outside of that he was one of the best vocalist in modern music.

a persons body obviously has something to do with the sound of their voice, it's why tall guys are often deep bass singers, it's why heavy guys are often great tenors. His voice was a natural gift, I happen to think the affectations he put on it hurt it.

214 said:

bonatoc said:

Try some of The Smiths. Start with a Best Of and see if something clings.
The first four/five Morrissey solo albums also have their moments.

[Edited 11/29/17 14:49pm]

Thanks, but YouTube is blocked here.

WTF?

bonatoc said:

214 said:

Thanks, but YouTube is blocked here.

WTF?

I mean in my work place not in general.

100% !!!

1984

OldFriends4Sale said:

SoftSkarlettLovisa said:

Don't get me wrong. I love Michael Jackson, like millions on this earth. Of course, he made some of the greatest music ever.

However, when I see clips of people fainting and crying at the sight of him and had to be carried away by ambulence ... honestly, it's a little cringey.

Yeah, I don't know how I'd react if I ever met Michael Jackson (if he was still alive), but still wasn't his celebrity status a little overrated?

If you did not experience the THRILLER - BAD period, then you might not understand it

Just like Prince. If people missed the 1999-SOTT period, but more specifically the 1982-1986 period and definately the 1984-1985 period, they might not understand

PeteSilas said:

I understand where you're coming from but that's not true. Prince as small as he was is a baritone. Smiley wasn't a huge guy and his voice is lighter than MJs. Whitney had a huge, powerful voice and she was very slim in size(height she was kinda tall)

you don't hear the differene in his singing between off the wall and thriller? he raised his voice through practice and he also lost 40 pounds in that era, they said that he was 105 pounds in that era. those are things he felt he had to do as a black man to be non-threatening and i also think it was his attempt to stay a child. he was different, his natural voice was fuller and lower as we've seen on some songs/interviews. and i was speaking in generalitites as far as body build, a body has an effect on the instrument, like any other instrument that's not electronic, the shape has an effect. Prince was a baritone i've also read things that say guys of his height are rarely great classical singers because they are short.

purple05 said:

PeteSilas said:

a persons body obviously has something to do with the sound of their voice, it's why tall guys are often deep bass singers, it's why heavy guys are often great tenors. His voice was a natural gift, I happen to think the affectations he put on it hurt it.

I understand where you're coming from but that's not true. Prince as small as he was is a baritone. Smiley wasn't a huge guy and his voice is lighter than MJs. Whitney had a huge, powerful voice and she was very slim in size(height she was kinda tall)

purple05 said:

Smiley wasn't a huge guy and his voice is lighter than MJs.

Who is Smiley? Jackie's speaking voice is lighter than Mike's.

PeteSilas said:

No MJ wasn't attempting to stay a child.
His voice was different because he sung in a different key on some songs.

SoftSkarlettLovisa said:

Don't get me wrong. I love Michael Jackson, like millions on this earth. Of course, he made some of the greatest music ever.

However, when I see clips of people fainting and crying at the sight of him and had to be carried away by ambulence ... honestly, it's a little cringey.

Yeah, I don't know how I'd react if I ever met Michael Jackson (if he was still alive), but still wasn't his celebrity status a little overrated?

Extremely.

mu5icl0v3r said:

No, Michael's FAME and celebrity was NOT overrated. You don't have to like him,however, that doesn't change the fact that Michael's fame and celebrity was earned and deserved. Michael wrote some of the greatest songs ever. People related to his music, and STILL do, even 8 years after his murder. Let's not forget that Michael was a child superstar, who became a MEGA STAR and became biggest star in the history of music. Again, people who want to TRY and diminish Michael's music, influence, appeal, success, artistry, popularity will not change the fact that Michael's fame was NOT overrated. Sadly, his fame made him the target of jealousy in the industry and target of extortionist/false allegations, in order to get money.
[Edited 12/2/17 4:38am]

MickyDolenz said:

Yes, Jackie's voice had ALWAYS been higher than Michael's. I have always pointed that out; however, people conveniently ignored my assertion because they WANTED Michael's voice to be higher. I guess it fit their agenda.

Free2BMe said:

mu5icl0v3r said:

Extremely.

No, Michael's FAME and celebrity was NOT overrated. You don't have to like him,however, that doesn't change the fact that Michael's fame and celebrity was earned and deserved. Michael wrote some of the greatest songs ever. People related to his music, and STILL do, even 8 years after his murder. Let's not forget that Michael was a child superstar, who became a MEGA STAR and became biggest star in the history of music.

Again, people who want to TRY and diminish Michael's music, influence, appeal, success, artistry, popularity will not change the fact that Michael's fame was NOT overrated. Sadly, his fame made him the target of jealousy in the industry and target of extortionist/false allegations, in order to get money. [Edited 12/2/17 4:38am]

Easy on the caps, we're not TRYING anything, just discussing.
Someone is HIGH on the Kool-Aid.
People love simple, effective songs. People love a singer.
People crave for someone out of the ordinary. We get it.

One can LOVE him and still think fame is not hard to acquire if you choose to go with the stream.
Michael was not a rebel at heart. Is "Smooth Criminal"’s Annie more relevant than "Annie Christian"? He's an adult trapped, his vocal performances in the studio reveal his inner control freak.
Michael was suffering in a genius way, and you can tell he's suffering, so maybe that's what people relate to. Cry for us. Cry a tear for me. Look at the crowd on the opening of Moonwalker. It's all about hysteria, tears, spotlights crucifixion.
Jesus, those shots with him running with the army. Yeech.
And then, the Apple commercial, Gandi, Lennon, newsflashes without.

Live, Michael sucked a little.
Here's your overrating, right there.
He's potent, but doesn't have anything to say except "you know it".
I know what, Michael? Who is Arafat? Cry a tear for me. Dance for me.

As for standing in this illusion of Perpetual Childhood, well, his fame is just natural in a world where people over forties buy game consoles, or act like brats.
Michael's politics is a kid that just read the newspaper headlines and used 2 seconds clips of the world's problems to promote his songs.

That's why I found it hard to get a role model out of Michael.
Peter Pan lost in Xanadu? Meh.
Yeah, the good deeds, but then again, it's the least you can do if you are religious and full of taxes, and if you have a kind heart, that goes without saying.

[Edited 12/2/17 9:20am]

Lol @ Annie and Annie Christian, that was my joke few months ago about Annie being AC

bonatoc said:

Sweetie, I'm not high on the Kool-Aid, I use caps for EMPHASIS. I know you internet raised babies , think that Caps mean screaming. Settle down, don't take that seriously. Lol, your perception of Michael is skewed. You saw only one side of him because that's what the media portrayed and what others WANTED to see. Michael's politics were as deep as any other musical artist. Ask the people who actually knew him, talked to him, etc., they know how deep Michael was in everything. He was pure of heart; however, his AWARENESS can't be diminished. Michael was the biggest star in the world; yet, he never forgot his "roots". Michael was the ONLY artist of his caliber, who insisted that every video he premiered had to pricier simentanously on BET, MTV, VHS, etc. He refused to allow MTV to have exclusive rights. Michael also refused to do interviews with a Rolling Stone and other MAINSTREAM publications, even when they put him on the cover. Rolling Stone offered to put Michael on the cover back to back for two issues, if he would do an interview. He refused.

Michael never sold out or capulated, just to sell albums. He never had to. The only magazines that he did interviews with were BLACK owned. I think he finally did an interview with TV guide. Michael did not have to go on every TV show in order to promote his music, as his sibling did. The bottomline is that Michael was not trapped in some Xanadu as the media and Others who are not aware thought. He was about love, racial equality, goodness, etc. but he knew the politics of the industry, his surrounding and the world.

Free2BMe said:[quote]

bonatoc said:

Sweetie, I'm not high on the Kool-Aid, I use caps for EMPHASIS. I know you internet raised babies , think that Caps mean screaming. Settle down, don't take that seriously. Lol, your perception of Michael is skewed. You saw only one side of him because that's what the media portrayed and what others WANTED to see. Michael's politics were as deep as any other musical artist. Ask the people who actually knew him, talked to him, etc., they know how deep Michael was in everything. He was pure of heart; however, his AWARENESS can't be diminished. Michael was the biggest star in the world; yet, he never forgot his "roots". Michael was the ONLY artist of his caliber, who insisted that every video he premiered had to pricier simentanously on BET, MTV, VHS, etc. He refused to allow MTV to have exclusive rights. Michael also refused to do interviews with a Rolling Stone and other MAINSTREAM publications, even when they put him on the cover. Rolling Stone offered to put Michael on the cover back to back for two issues, if he would do an interview. He refused.

Michael never sold out or capulated, just to sell albums. He never had to. The only magazines that he did interviews with were BLACK owned. I think he finally did an interview with TV guide. Michael did not have to go on every TV show in order to promote his music, as his sibling did. The bottomline is that Michael was not trapped in some Xanadu as the media and Others who are not aware thought. He was about love, racial equality, goodness, etc. but he knew the politics of the industry, his surrounding and the world. Music that Michael composed reflects that awarenesss of politics, racism, global issues, industry/mainstream mainstream manipulations, etc. I always love how Michael's music had a different or deeper meaning than what people THOUGHT it meant upon first hearing one of his songs.

Great point, it's very true he granted interviews to black publications, and those were where he was most authentic and vocal about his passion for music, humanitarism and the arts, although in my opinion when he did VIBE in 2001, the redundancy seemed like he was trying to re-brand himself based on past answers and visuals vs. being authentic, especially how he was with ebony during Thriller, Bad and Dangerous. Not to mention interviews with black public figures throughout the 00's where musicianship was the key element.

If I told people I loved mj's interviews, those were not the first associations, it was oprah and especially bashir. My love for mj grew from those (magazine) interviews. When younger, I would read that and seriously wanted to have a conversation with him about music all day and jam, for the love of music, nothing more. The giving tree stuff I definitely believe he wrote songs up there without a pre-plan, but not in a gimmicky way the way often portrayed in populat culture. I think that's why some fans may have been upset, cause we know he was better than that and let that guy take advantage of his self-created sacred space.

[Edited 12/2/17 13:06pm]

MickyDolenz said:

I forget who I was referring to but yea Jackie is a good example