PeteSilas said:

i could pass for white probably, i wouldn't want to but i could. Chuck Norris and Tommy Morrison are two half-breeds that generally pass as white. I can see it in their features, tommy morrison died his hair blond and claimed he was related to john wayne as a marketing ploy at a time when being a white heavyweight was big money. chuck norris has never seemed to have much allegiance to being Indian or being ashamed of it, he's just never made a point of it. both guys can pass and have for the most part. And Cherokee is what norris and morrison claim I believe. those two guys would obviously have more proof than a two hundred year old ancestor. tommy's mom is obviously indian and has bemoaned the fact that tommy wouldn't claim being an indian. Norris, he may not have passed like morrison but he's never really been firm about being an indian. Elvis, i don't even know if he knew he had an indian ancestor, I do know he was aware of jewish parentage, his mother had a star of david on her grave and he used to wear one too. lisa marie is alive, they should try out a dna test on her.

purple05 said:

PeteSilas said:

i'lll look at them closer later but i can tell you now, i know an indian when i see one and elvis is indian, also, saying a guy or a woman claimed white (you wouldn't know this) was not unusual and in fact very common for Indians in those days, that kind of confusion exists in my own family it's just called passing. women can get away with that easier than men for a lot of reasons. at any rate, his ancestors look even more indian than he does AND there were two indian ancestors not just morning dove.

Apparently the Indian is on one side. One of the sources says she's Indian but Cherokee not Creek. Also back then they didn't list you as white unless you were pure white. Even the slaves with the slightest bit of black i.e. quadroons were still listed as such and even slaves. But it's tricky because people self identified. But even if he is Indian, that's less than 5% and it's really not enough to make a difference in his looks.

PeteSilas said:

Native American

purple05 said:

PeteSilas said:

i could pass for white probably, i wouldn't want to but i could. Chuck Norris and Tommy Morrison are two half-breeds that generally pass as white. I can see it in their features, tommy morrison died his hair blond and claimed he was related to john wayne as a marketing ploy at a time when being a white heavyweight was big money. chuck norris has never seemed to have much allegiance to being Indian or being ashamed of it, he's just never made a point of it. both guys can pass and have for the most part. And Cherokee is what norris and morrison claim I believe. those two guys would obviously have more proof than a two hundred year old ancestor. tommy's mom is obviously indian and has bemoaned the fact that tommy wouldn't claim being an indian. Norris, he may not have passed like morrison but he's never really been firm about being an indian. Elvis, i don't even know if he knew he had an indian ancestor, I do know he was aware of jewish parentage, his mother had a star of david on her grave and he used to wear one too. lisa marie is alive, they should try out a dna test on her.

Yea if Lisa did that finding DNA show that would be cool. But I think she would probably have to use one of Elvis' siblings. I think it only tracks your maternal line or something like that. Maybe use her son then. But genetics are very interesting. Are you East Indian or Native American

Speaking of racial mix, didn't mj mention there is some Chinese mix from his mom's side?

alphastreet said:

Speaking of racial mix, didn't mj mention there is some Chinese mix from his mom's side?

i don't know, he did claim indian, Prince apparently did have Indian also according to Hahns' recent research and John Nelson's info.

PeteSilas said:

alphastreet said:

Speaking of racial mix, didn't mj mention there is some Chinese mix from his mom's side?

i don't know, he did claim indian, Prince apparently did have Indian also according to Hahns' recent research and John Nelson's info.

Wouldn't surprise me though it's known on the board Prince identified himself being mixed with races other than black early in his career, to generate buzz, not unlike mj being 11 years old on the rolling stone cover

Prince earned it more with pure talent. And weirder music.

2freaky4church1 said:

2freaky4church1 said:

Prince earned it more with pure talent. And weirder music.

He certainly worked more his skinny ass off.
And he never left Uptown.
Musical integrity bends a little towards Prince's plate.
It actually makes me feel better.

But hey, Don't Let Nobody Turn You 'Round.
Michael lighted up the path for me.
But "King of Pop"? Rr-hum...

Overrated in the way it would never occur to Prince to come up with a name
specifically aimed at Michael Jackson. Michael missed the humour of adults.
This kinda "He May Be The Prince, But I'm The King" is first an usurpation of Elvis,
and then a self-proclaimed status than feeds on fame alone, or at least not artistic qualities only.

"Stranger In Moscow" is weird Michael.
Now "We Can Fuck" this ain't.
Which one is closer to life?
Whose dreams are the deepest?
A mirror of paranoia, or the many colors of the act?
Whose dreams speak of truth?
A Jag runnin in the night towards a club gig,
or a footing amidst the (yuchhh) military?

Serve me ten TAFKAPs anyday instead of a statue à la Staline,
grossly implying Michael single-handedly made the Berlin Wall crumbling down.
Oh Lawd, them JW and their obsession with Jericho's trumpets...

Not all Apocalypses grow from blood.
The Star System will make you paranoid.
It's just about wether you get yourself out of the circle.
Prince got out way faste: Christopher Tracy was a full grown man already.
Meanwhile Michael was Captain (again this Man In A Uniform obsession?) EO.
Name-dropping Lucas, Coppola, like security blankets.
Prince was giving jobs and record opportunities in Minnie.

Please let's not compare a man's Work with a manchild's notebook.

But hey, it's a good thing the world went kinda trans-continental nuts about a manchild.
And not about, someone like, say, Donald... uh-oh... wait...

The nod to Back To The Future which itself is a nod to Spinal Tap... Michael was not blind, and a musician too.
Prince gets often bashed for his politics, but then again "Black Or White" is "All You Need Is Love".
Which is not bad, but Positivity it ain't.

Give me a thousand men in the mirror anyday, instead of Paglia e Fieno.
Italy had Nutella®-drenched hair for a decade, here's your Frank Miller's Elektra's mayonnaise wig bearer.
Serves us right. Here's what happens when you don't care about democar... deco... dermo.. something crassy.

[Edited 11/27/17 11:49am]

Proves we have infiltrators on the org. lol

bonatoc said:

Please let's not compare a man's Work with a manchild's notebook.

But hey, it's a good thing the world went kinda trans-continental nuts about a manchild.
And not about, someone like, say, Donald... uh-oh... wait...

The nod to Back To The Future which itself is a nod to Spinal Tap... Michael was not blind, and a musician too.
Prince gets often bashed for his politics, but then again "Black Or White" is "All You Need Is Love".
Which is not bad, but Positivity it ain't.

Give me a thousand men in the mirror anyday, instead of Paglia e Fieno.
Italy had Nutella®-drenched hair for a decade, here's your Frank Miller's Elektra's mayonnaise wig bearer.
Serves us right. Here's what happens when you don't care about democar... deco... dermo.. something crassy.

[Edited 11/27/17 11:49am]

Get thee behind me, Satan.

Dasein said:

bonatoc said:

Please let's not compare a man's Work with a manchild's notebook.

But hey, it's a good thing the world went kinda trans-continental nuts about a manchild.
And not about, someone like, say, Donald... uh-oh... wait...

The nod to Back To The Future which itself is a nod to Spinal Tap... Michael was not blind, and a musician too.
Prince gets often bashed for his politics, but then again "Black Or White" is "All You Need Is Love".
Which is not bad, but Positivity it ain't.

Give me a thousand men in the mirror anyday, instead of Paglia e Fieno.
Italy had Nutella®-drenched hair for a decade, here's your Frank Miller's Elektra's mayonnaise wig bearer.
Serves us right. Here's what happens when you don't care about democar... deco... dermo.. something crassy.

[Edited 11/27/17 11:49am]

Get thee behind me, Satan.

I did not get anything this guy said in this post.

Michael spent a lot in a movie where he transforms himself into a robot.
And a car. And that's OK, the guy was pure, and it made it like being a performer is being a superhero.
But then again, that's precisely what Hollywood wants.
What is fame?

I don't blame Michael for the military,
but it's not a great legacy image. I try to have fun with it,
and I remember being excited by it when I was twelve, but today it's not what I want to remember Michael for.

But again, I don't blame him,
that was Michael's way to deal with his father,
and his own vicious circle of Guinness Book records.

Prince dealt with his father in a Black and White movie.
The kinda Pops saw in his youth, before color TV.

Kate Bush? No, I was saying let's compare the respective outputs,
whether you diss most part of The Vault or not,
in volumes of sheer work and disciplines mastered, when the dust settles,
if these terms were the ones to define fame, then Michael is clearly overrated.

Prince has a Magnum Opus, Michael has a dozen (very) good books.
The Axe Book alone would be missing from Michael's œuvre.
Yeah, you could say that he's single-handedly responsible for the break-up between Eddie Van Halen
and David Lee Roth, Stevie Stevens and Billy Idol, and Slash and Axl Rose.
Oh, and Sheryl Crow, and her horrendous glam-metal looks.

He's one of the best singers out there, and he did a lot to help bring back
the real craft into showmanship (Fosse, Astaire...). But in an almost too gentle way (consider Prince in thighs).
America went nuts about "Purple Rain" in parts because Prince looked like
Michael's evil cousin, or almost like Michael hitting puberty after "Thriller".

Michael basically conveyed us that when he gets home alone at night with a girl,
the thought of intimacy scares him like the night of the living dead.
Whereas Prince, he brings home the girl on his bike, puts on God (Instrumental),
and shows the american youth how to go easy and slow on foreplay on an almost too long scene.
Maybe when you were twelve years old, you didn't know some magazines existed
for masturbation purposes only, but after Nikki you know.

Man on one side, manchild on the other.
Relentless live work on one side, Disneyland tours on the other.
I'm obviously simplifying, but yeah, Michael did work at his P.R. too much,
but is fame just P.R.?

Prince's extravaganzas were never gratuitous. If you read about it in the papers,
It was because an album or a tour or a side project was coming.
He was poor material for gossip. But is fame just gossip?

NorthC said:

purple05 said:

But are Kate Bush's and Prince music as well known as MJ & Beatkes? No because MJ and Beatles knew the concept of melody and how is resonated with the public.

I don't know anything about Kate Bush other than the song she did with Peter Gabriel. But I don't think melody is the only thing that makes music popular. Hip hop tends to be about the beat, not melody. There's a lot of rap songs that only have a beat like Paul Revere by the Beastie Boys. I remember people having these large speaker systems with 808s in their cars & trucks that would make the car rattle & "boom boom". They'd have DJ Magic Mike tapes with the Miami Bass songs. Some had hydraulics and lowriders. Some modern popular producers are beatmakers. Rap has been one of the most popular genres since the mid 1980s. James Brown was more about the rhythm. That's probably a reason he was often sampled in early hip hop, to the point he released the song I'm Real, where he says "you better take my voice off your records til I'm paid in full".

NorthC said:

Let me try to explain then the way I see it: a man's work is a reference to Kate Bush's A Woman's Work, an absolutely fantastic song from the only artist from the 1980s who could rival Prince in terms of sheer creativity. Forget Madonna, forget Springsteen, forget U2, it was Prince and Kate who made the most of exciting music of the decade. The "manchild" comment was about Jacko living with a chimp and a llama and a python and sleeping in an oxygen tank, in other words, him coming across as a total fruitcake in the 1980s and he never recovered from that. The comparison between Black & White and All You Need Is Love means that both songs have this idealistic view of a wonderful world. Positivity talks about "can a boy who drops out of school at 13 years of age answer the Q of life & death when it slaps him in the face." That's reality coming down hard on you and Positivity is like Marvin Gaye's Inner City Blues: the world is hell, but the answer is love, not in a hippy sort of way, but from someone that's been through the darkness (Black Album) and has seen the light. I don't hear that in the Beatles and Jackson songs mentioned. I do hear it in Lovesexy and Positivity. That's why Bona's post makes sense to me. [Edited 11/27/17 15:07pm] [Edited 11/27/17 15:48pm]

Gracias hombre, muy amable de tu parte.

bonatoc said:

Michael spent a lot in a movie where he transforms himself into a robot.
And a car. And that's OK, the guy was pure, and it made it like being a performer is being a superhero.
But then again, that's precisely what Hollywood wants.
What is fame?

I don't blame Michael for the military,
but it's not a great legacy image. I try to have fun with it,
and I remember being excited by it when I was twelve, but today it's not what I want to remember Michael for.

But again, I don't blame him,
that was Michael's way to deal with his father,
and his own vicious circle of Guinness Book records.

Prince dealt with his father in a Black and White movie.
The kinda Pops saw in his youth, before color TV.

Kate Bush? No, I was saying let's compare the respective outputs,
whether you diss most part of The Vault or not,
in volumes of sheer work and disciplines mastered, when the dust settles,
if these terms were the ones to define fame, then Michael is clearly overrated.

Prince has a Magnum Opus, Michael has a dozen (very) good books.
The Axe Book alone would be missing from Michael's œuvre.
Yeah, you could say that he's single-handedly responsible for the break-up between Eddie Van Halen
and David Lee Roth, Stevie Stevens and Billy Idol, and Slash and Axl Rose.
Oh, and Sheryl Crow, and her horrendous glam-metal looks.

He's one of the best singers out there, and he did a lot to help bring back
the real craft into showmanship (Fosse, Astaire...). But in an almost too gentle way (consider Prince in thighs).
America went nuts about "Purple Rain" in parts because Prince looked like
Michael's evil cousin, or almost like Michael hitting puberty after "Thriller".

Michael basically conveyed us that when he gets home alone at night with a girl,
the thought of intimacy scares him like the night of the living dead.
Whereas Prince, he brings home the girl on his bike, puts on God (Instrumental),
and shows the american youth how to go easy and slow on foreplay on an almost too long scene.
Maybe when you were twelve years old, you didn't know some magazines existed
for masturbation purposes only, but after Nikki you know.

Man on one side, manchild on the other.
Relentless live work on one side, Disneyland tours on the other.
I'm obviously simplifying, but yeah, Michael did work at his P.R. too much,
but is fame just P.R.?

Prince's extravaganzas were never gratuitous. If you read about it in the papers,
It was because an album or a tour or a side project was coming.
He was poor material for gossip. But is fame just gossip?

Merci, as great as usual. How do you say that in french?

MickyDolenz said:

These threads always turn to useless shit at some point lol.

I don't have a problem with mass appeal, I'm glad we're in a world where it's not a band called Anthrax or Sepultura that sells the most.
I have nothing a good pissed-off headbanging, but I'm thankful for Michael.
He suspended childhood for a while, right at the adolescent rage of Billie Jean.
Then he became a young adult with "Dangerous", and then he backed up.

Because talent is talent, he was still the shit, but stayed in the Land of Oz.
Prince didn't spend his life there. Good for him.
I'm really not sure fame on Michael Jackson's levels is a good thing.
For the brain, for the soul, for the nervous system.

At some point, you probably go: who the fuck is in the mirror? Who am I looking at?
And speaking of Michael, well, one could also wonder about it litterally.

I don't like his martyr status. It weighs his accomplishments down.
Fame usually means the thing is known to the extent where the common man has heard of 3 songs (or 2 movies, whatever).
You can't define someone's work based on 3 songs. It makes you ineligible to give proper advice.
Does worldwide fame require ignorance?

scorp84 said:

These threads always turn to useless shit at some point lol.

Given that fame made one of them go Koo-Koo, and almost stole the sanity of other one,
I think it's an interesting topic when it comes to performing.
I don't think anyone could handle it and stay cool.
Prince went back to cool, but you could say he had is own, relatively short, paranoia fever.
His own Land of Oz, Xanadu. Paisley Park, Neverland, tomato, potato.

They remind me of very fine artists, past and living, which never left the good ol' ground.
Their art is not more or less interesting. Fame is a useless layer, even a toxic one.
Popularity is something different. It's the people's voice, not a mirage.
I don't need starification if it means crucifixion.

On "Baby I'm A Star", Prince has all his friends on stage.
He never totally lost it because he surrounded himself with friends.
But with time, the less friends you get in touch with, the narrower your views on the world get.

He went mad at himself for having signed something that trapped him,
and looked like a loon from a distance, but we know he shaped the future of music distribution
just by bringing the problems to the table. Even if we thought he'd lost it, nah, he wasn't.
He was eccentric about it, that's for sure.

I don't think Prince's fame hurt Prince much during his lifetime, it probably has,
but certainly not in the devastating way it took Michael.
I acknowledge collaborators have suffered. I'm not going to make a saint of either of them.

But the Blanket Baby incident alone speaks in volumes.
And the Oprah "everything's good" is not a really comforting sight either.
That's, in a nutshell, what fame will do to you.
A detachment that everyone wishes it would be spiritual, but it turns out it's not: It's a severing.

[Edited 11/28/17 5:26am]

no fame isn't good for the soul, it's like the old saying be careful what you wish for. One of my heroes, Bruce Lee, worked hard as anyone for fame and when he got it, with his temperament, it pretty much killed him within a couple years. Some cope better than others. I do think the one thing it does is it causes arrested developement in these men, they never seem to really grow up, Sinatra was known to throw tantrums at the drop of a hat, use women and generally live in a perpetual state of adolescence. How many of these guys marry or date women their own age? Most of them get stuck and WE help to enable that with our adoration. Prince dealt with it pretty well all things considered, I think it short circuited Michael and it caused Muhammad Ali to keep coming back to the ring making sure the second half of his life would be diminished.

bonatoc said:

scorp84 said:

These threads always turn to useless shit at some point lol.

Given that fame made one of them go Koo-Koo, and almost stole the sanity of other one,
I think it's an interesting topic when it comes to performing.
I don't think anyone could handle it and stay cool.
Prince went back to cool, but you could say he had is own, relatively short, paranoia fever.
His own Land of Oz, Xanadu. Paisley Park, Neverland, tomato, potato.

They remind me of very fine artists, past and living, which never left the good ol' ground.
Their art is not more or less interesting. Fame is a useless layer, even a toxic one.
Popularity is something different. It's the people's voice, not a mirage.
I don't need starification if it means crucifixion.

On "Baby I'm A Star", Prince has all his friends on stage.
He never totally lost it because he surrounded himself with friends.
But with time, the less friends you get in touch with, the narrower your views on the world get.

He went mad at himself for having signed something that trapped him,
and looked like a loon from a distance, but we know he shaped the future of music distribution
just by bringing the problems to the table. Even if we thought he'd lost it, nah, he wasn't.
He was eccentric about it, that's for sure.

I don't think Prince's fame hurt Prince much during his lifetime, it probably has,
but certainly not in the devastating way it took Michael.
I acknowledge collaborators have suffered. I'm not going to make a saint of either of them.

But the Blanket Baby incident alone speaks in volumes.
And the Oprah "everything's good" is not a really comforting sight either.
That's, in a nutshell, what fame will do to you.
A detachment that everyone wishes it would be spiritual, but it turns out it's not: It's a severing.

[Edited 11/28/17 5:26am]

purple05 said:

Not old school hip hop but present day. For about the past 20 years most of it has been melody driven and/or sampled r&b music. I think that qualifies. But my point is that it has to be something that people can easily listen and sing along to. That's the mass appeal of the Beatles/MJs music

What about those people on American Bandstand always saying "It has a good beat and I can dance to it"?

Fact!

Prince Grew up an MJ Fan.

bonatoc said:

Please let's not compare a man's Work with a manchild's notebook.

But hey, it's a good thing the world went kinda trans-continental nuts about a manchild.
And not about, someone like, say, Donald... uh-oh... wait...

The nod to Back To The Future which itself is a nod to Spinal Tap... Michael was not blind, and a musician too.
Prince gets often bashed for his politics, but then again "Black Or White" is "All You Need Is Love".
Which is not bad, but Positivity it ain't.

Give me a thousand men in the mirror anyday, instead of Paglia e Fieno.
Italy had Nutella®-drenched hair for a decade, here's your Frank Miller's Elektra's mayonnaise wig bearer.
Serves us right. Here's what happens when you don't care about democar... deco... dermo.. something crassy.

[Edited 11/27/17 11:49am]

MD431Madcat said:

Fact!

Prince Grew up an MJ Fan.

I agree. Not contesting that.
I'm just thinking that, if Michael is without a doubt a genius,
what superlative is left for Prince?

The fact that Prince left behind him a work much more substantial that Michael doesn't mean that Michael had less talent. The thing is, Prince had it all.

If fame was defined by sheer capacities and the volume of the work accomplished, then it's not that Michael doesn't deserve his success, rather it's Prince who didn't receive the one he was rightfully entitled to.