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Reply #30 posted 10/10/17 5:13pm

alphastreet

Control didn't officially sample anything, but I knew I wasn't the only one who heard the similarity between the track Control and Freakazoid . The elements in the music on that album not only remind me of prince and mj, but also freestyle and funk tracks of the 80's, which janet herself paid homage to on 20 YO

Back to velvet rope, it's a refreshing change to see this album get a lot of love....I wonder if janet will give all for you love like this in 2021 for simply being crowned icon and being a strong comeback...would be so cool if she reissued songs she didn't get to back then, just for fans, at least in concert, telling MTV to f-off

[Edited 10/10/17 17:17pm]

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Reply #31 posted 10/11/17 9:11am

namepeace

alphastreet said:

Control didn't officially sample anything, but I knew I wasn't the only one who heard the similarity between the track Control and Freakazoid . The elements in the music on that album not only remind me of prince and mj, but also freestyle and funk tracks of the 80's, which janet herself paid homage to on 20 YO

True, they were always clever in burying the grooves they borrowed. Heck, Prince openly kidded (or was he serious?) about writing "What Have You Done for Me Lately?"

Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #32 posted 10/11/17 9:15am

alphastreet

namepeace said:



alphastreet said:


Control didn't officially sample anything, but I knew I wasn't the only one who heard the similarity between the track Control and Freakazoid . The elements in the music on that album not only remind me of prince and mj, but also freestyle and funk tracks of the 80's, which janet herself paid homage to on 20 YO






True, they were always clever in burying the grooves they borrowed. Heck, Prince openly kidded (or was he serious?) about writing "What Have You Done for Me Lately?"



I don't feel like prince wrote that; but the chord progressions sound like it could have come up in a jam session before getting fired

Jungle love actually is a great precursor to the control era more so than any particular prince track
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Reply #33 posted 10/11/17 10:28am

TrivialPursuit

namepeace said:

alphastreet said:

Control didn't officially sample anything, but I knew I wasn't the only one who heard the similarity between the track Control and Freakazoid . The elements in the music on that album not only remind me of prince and mj, but also freestyle and funk tracks of the 80's, which janet herself paid homage to on 20 YO

True, they were always clever in burying the grooves they borrowed. Heck, Prince openly kidded (or was he serious?) about writing "What Have You Done for Me Lately?"


Let's be clear. Prince never insinuated that he wrote that song. Not on The Nude Tour or otherwise. It was more a ribbing to Jimmy & Terry.

Spoken: "Who wrote that?!"
Unspoken, "My pals Jimmy & Terry, member of a group I put together. They wouldn't be anyone without me." It was friendly competitive banter, not a claim of ownership.

"Despite everything, no 1 can dictate who u r 2 other people." - Prince |
http://bit.ly/unboxingprince
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Reply #34 posted 10/11/17 4:39pm

alphastreet

TrivialPursuit said:

namepeace said:

True, they were always clever in burying the grooves they borrowed. Heck, Prince openly kidded (or was he serious?) about writing "What Have You Done for Me Lately?"


Let's be clear. Prince never insinuated that he wrote that song. Not on The Nude Tour or otherwise. It was more a ribbing to Jimmy & Terry.

Spoken: "Who wrote that?!"
Unspoken, "My pals Jimmy & Terry, member of a group I put together. They wouldn't be anyone without me." It was friendly competitive banter, not a claim of ownership.

Thanks for the clarification, everyone borrows from someone. Quincy and Teddy did it all the time too without sampling

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Reply #35 posted 10/11/17 7:41pm

206Michelle

The Velvet Rope was the FIRST CD that I ever bought. I wrote this on my Facebook page a few minutes ago:

...

Happy belated 20th birthday to The Velvet Rope, which was released on October 7, 1997. The Velvet Rope is significant to me because it was the FIRST CD that I ever bought. It was a milestone in my childhood. For people of my age, I feel like buying CDs/music was a part of adolescence, self-expression, and a part of the development of a personal identity. I bought my copy of The Velvet Rope at the Target in West Seattle's Westwood Village shopping center, most likely in 1998, when I 12 years old. I'm pretty sure that I was in 7th grade at the time. I bought the album because I was obsessed with Janet's song "Together Again," it was my jam! "The Velvet Rope" is not exactly appropriate for a 12-year-old, but I didn't comprehend a lot of the adult themes on the album because they "went over my head" lol. (I had a pretty sheltered childhood.) I cannot believe it's been 20 years since Janet made this album. And guess who I'm going to see in concert next month...Janet Jackson.

...

Live 4 Love ~ Love is God, God is love, Girls and boys love God above
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Reply #36 posted 10/11/17 9:53pm

TrivialPursuit

So I was challenged on here regarding "What About" and that it wasn't about Rene. While I've stuck to that story (because obviously their marriage was on its way out in those last few years), I did dig around tonight.

While she didn't mention names in interviews about the song, it was certainly clear who she was talking about, IMO. It seems she could have been referring to her marriage to DeBarge, unless there was someone else between DeBarge and Rene that I'm missing.

In the scope of the timeline, it certainly makes more sense. I read a lot of interviews tonight about how she had buried so much pain in her life stemming from childhood and her early adult years. They really started to surface near the end of the janet. tour. She ended up in the desert with a shaman, and that's how the coffee enema thing came about to get rid of sad cells.

I saw an interview with Madonna around 1998 where Kurt Loder was kind of dumping on the album's artwork, comparing it to Madonna's Sex book, with the bondage, etc. He was dismissive of it, and Madonna brushed it off (because what is she going to do, keep trashing someone?) While it's a good album, Erotica was the rehearsal to what The Velvet Rope became in full.

"Despite everything, no 1 can dictate who u r 2 other people." - Prince |
http://bit.ly/unboxingprince
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Reply #37 posted 10/12/17 6:14am

Musicslave

namepeace said:

alphastreet said:

Control didn't officially sample anything, but I knew I wasn't the only one who heard the similarity between the track Control and Freakazoid . The elements in the music on that album not only remind me of prince and mj, but also freestyle and funk tracks of the 80's, which janet herself paid homage to on 20 YO

True, they were always clever in burying the grooves they borrowed. Heck, Prince openly kidded (or was he serious?) about writing "What Have You Done for Me Lately?"

-

I had this tune in mind when I mentioned borrowing on "Control"....

-

-

Keep in mind that Jimmy Jam was the Pop music lover growing up. Terry indoctrinated him into the Funk later. cool

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Reply #38 posted 10/12/17 9:01am

namepeace

alphastreet said:

namepeace said:

True, they were always clever in burying the grooves they borrowed. Heck, Prince openly kidded (or was he serious?) about writing "What Have You Done for Me Lately?"

I don't feel like prince wrote that; but the chord progressions sound like it could have come up in a jam session before getting fired Jungle love actually is a great precursor to the control era more so than any particular prince track


That's my thought as well.

Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #39 posted 10/12/17 9:07am

namepeace

alphastreet said:

TrivialPursuit said:


Let's be clear. Prince never insinuated that he wrote that song. Not on The Nude Tour or otherwise. It was more a ribbing to Jimmy & Terry.

Spoken: "Who wrote that?!"
Unspoken, "My pals Jimmy & Terry, member of a group I put together. They wouldn't be anyone without me." It was friendly competitive banter, not a claim of ownership.

Thanks for the clarification, everyone borrows from someone. Quincy and Teddy did it all the time too without sampling


So did Prince. He lifted straight from Jimi Hendrix and Soul II Soul on Graffiti Bridge, which had a very New Jack-feel in some spots.

The main point I made was, and remains, that J&T were really good at it.

Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #40 posted 10/12/17 12:41pm

TrivialPursuit

namepeace said:

alphastreet said:

Thanks for the clarification, everyone borrows from someone. Quincy and Teddy did it all the time too without sampling


So did Prince. He lifted straight from Jimi Hendrix and Soul II Soul on Graffiti Bridge, which had a very New Jack-feel in some spots.

The main point I made was, and remains, that J&T were really good at it.


That's the fucking truth! Prince delved into two genres that he should never have gotten into. The NJS and reverby-echoy production hat we heard with people like Taylor Dayne. It worked for Dayne, but not for Prince. His music became very dated and uncharacteristic of what we knew of him. And it wasn't that he was growing as an artist. He had always done that. But the bland hollowed out sound of 1989-1991 is what took down his crown as the Prince of pop. While we like stuff on GB, it wasn't very accessible to the public. Prince wasn't weird anymore. Prince wasn't creating music and being innovative anymore. He saw something he liked and tried to make it his own and it failed.

Jam and Lewis were already there melding it into their productions while giving their artist the vision they wanted for a project. They nailed it. Teddy Riley nailed it. Guy, New Edition, TLC, endless list of folks who got it and made it their own. Maybe Prince felt threatened by that and tried to trip them up. I think he failed at it, and thank God for the more band-oriented sound we started to get by 1992 or so.

"Despite everything, no 1 can dictate who u r 2 other people." - Prince |
http://bit.ly/unboxingprince
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Reply #41 posted 10/12/17 12:58pm

StrangeButTrue

avatar

TrivialPursuit said:

So I was challenged on here regarding "What About" and that it wasn't about Rene. While I've stuck to that story (because obviously their marriage was on its way out in those last few years), I did dig around tonight.

While she didn't mention names in interviews about the song, it was certainly clear who she was talking about, IMO. It seems she could have been referring to her marriage to DeBarge, unless there was someone else between DeBarge and Rene that I'm missing.

In the scope of the timeline, it certainly makes more sense. I read a lot of interviews tonight about how she had buried so much pain in her life stemming from childhood and her early adult years. They really started to surface near the end of the janet. tour. She ended up in the desert with a shaman, and that's how the coffee enema thing came about to get rid of sad cells.

I saw an interview with Madonna around 1998 where Kurt Loder was kind of dumping on the album's artwork, comparing it to Madonna's Sex book, with the bondage, etc. He was dismissive of it, and Madonna brushed it off (because what is she going to do, keep trashing someone?) While it's a good album, Erotica was the rehearsal to what The Velvet Rope became in full.

if it was just a dream, call me a dreamer 2
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Reply #42 posted 10/12/17 1:04pm

TrivialPursuit

StrangeButTrue said:

TrivialPursuit said:

While it's a good album, Erotica was the rehearsal to what The Velvet Rope became in full.

[bullshit GIF]


LOL Hey, listen. I'm not saying Erotica isn't a great record. It is. It's textured, gritty, sexy, sultry. It's a bit like getting a blowjob on a plush couch found in an alley behind Nordstrom's.

The Velvet Rope, however, feels more focused. Less about being provocative and more about substance.

"Despite everything, no 1 can dictate who u r 2 other people." - Prince |
http://bit.ly/unboxingprince
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Reply #43 posted 10/12/17 1:47pm

namepeace

TrivialPursuit said:

namepeace said:


So did Prince. He lifted straight from Jimi Hendrix and Soul II Soul on Graffiti Bridge, which had a very New Jack-feel in some spots.

The main point I made was, and remains, that J&T were really good at it.


That's the fucking truth! Prince delved into two genres that he should never have gotten into. The NJS and reverby-echoy production hat we heard with people like Taylor Dayne. It worked for Dayne, but not for Prince. His music became very dated and uncharacteristic of what we knew of him. And it wasn't that he was growing as an artist. He had always done that. But the bland hollowed out sound of 1989-1991 is what took down his crown as the Prince of pop. While we like stuff on GB, it wasn't very accessible to the public. Prince wasn't weird anymore. Prince wasn't creating music and being innovative anymore. He saw something he liked and tried to make it his own and it failed.

Jam and Lewis were already there melding it into their productions while giving their artist the vision they wanted for a project. They nailed it. Teddy Riley nailed it. Guy, New Edition, TLC, endless list of folks who got it and made it their own. Maybe Prince felt threatened by that and tried to trip them up. I think he failed at it, and thank God for the more band-oriented sound we started to get by 1992 or so.


GB is a solid album, but it had a tail-wags-dog kind of feel in spots, (imo) because he was trying to find the mass audiences again. That was a funny time, when Teddy Riley basically lifted "Do Me, Baby" for Bobby's "Rock Wit'Cha" and Prince returned the favor with NJS-style productions the next few years.

To me, J&L hit it big throughout the 80's and 90's because their early and mid-80's work set the stage for NJS. Then, as the 90's moved more to neo-soul and hip-hop sounds, they turned the corner nicely with VR.

Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #44 posted 10/12/17 3:45pm

alphastreet

namepeace said:

alphastreet said:

Thanks for the clarification, everyone borrows from someone. Quincy and Teddy did it all the time too without sampling


So did Prince. He lifted straight from Jimi Hendrix and Soul II Soul on Graffiti Bridge, which had a very New Jack-feel in some spots.

The main point I made was, and remains, that J&T were really good at it.

I like prince doing new jack, but can't decide if I like the style or look more from that era smile

When did he lift from soul 2 soul? I didn't catch that right away

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Reply #45 posted 10/12/17 4:25pm

StrangeButTrue

avatar

Fave cuts of this push play album "You" with that Cisco Kid break and groundbreaking sexy "Free Xone", the cover of "Tonight's The Night" has aged well IMHO it seemed a bit cheesy back in the day. "Got Til It's Gone" with Nellee Hooper, Dilla remixes. Hooper remixed two tracks for JJ but they never did a song together, right? Probably my fave JJ full album though I have a soft spot for Rhythm Nation.
.
In Janet Voice "edit" just noticed all of my faves from this album are covers or sample based. Best non sample track "Empty"
[Edited 10/12/17 16:26pm]
if it was just a dream, call me a dreamer 2
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Reply #46 posted 10/12/17 6:04pm

alphastreet

The sample based thing always happened from time with me.

empty would have had such a cool video if released at the dawn of y2k with a kick ass video . And what about should have been released with the performance as the video
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Reply #47 posted 10/12/17 7:07pm

StrangeButTrue

avatar

Empty is an eerie premonition of a song really when you consider the prevalence of online dating and cell phones in modern times for a cut from 97 with almost trap beats (more leaning towards uk drum n bass). One of her more poignant tracks up there with Truth, Again or State of the World.
if it was just a dream, call me a dreamer 2
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Reply #48 posted 10/12/17 8:12pm

206Michelle

Musicslave said:

namepeace said:

True, they were always clever in burying the grooves they borrowed. Heck, Prince openly kidded (or was he serious?) about writing "What Have You Done for Me Lately?"

-

I had this tune in mind when I mentioned borrowing on "Control"....

-

-

Keep in mind that Jimmy Jam was the Pop music lover growing up. Terry indoctrinated him into the Funk later. cool

Yeah, "Let's Wait Awhile" (from Control) has the same exact chords as "Daisy Jane"! (And I don't think I've heard "Daisy Jane" before now, either. Nevertheless, the two songs have a striking resemblance.)

[Edited 10/12/17 20:15pm]

Live 4 Love ~ Love is God, God is love, Girls and boys love God above
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Reply #49 posted 10/13/17 4:49am

BlackCat1985

avatar

TrivialPursuit said:

So I was challenged on here regarding "What About" and that it wasn't about Rene. While I've stuck to that story (because obviously their marriage was on its way out in those last few years), I did dig around tonight.

While she didn't mention names in interviews about the song, it was certainly clear who she was talking about, IMO. It seems she could have been referring to her marriage to DeBarge, unless there was someone else between DeBarge and Rene that I'm missing.

In the scope of the timeline, it certainly makes more sense. I read a lot of interviews tonight about how she had buried so much pain in her life stemming from childhood and her early adult years. They really started to surface near the end of the janet. tour. She ended up in the desert with a shaman, and that's how the coffee enema thing came about to get rid of sad cells.

I saw an interview with Madonna around 1998 where Kurt Loder was kind of dumping on the album's artwork, comparing it to Madonna's Sex book, with the bondage, etc. He was dismissive of it, and Madonna brushed it off (because what is she going to do, keep trashing someone?) While it's a good album, Erotica was the rehearsal to what The Velvet Rope became in full.



I don't know if parts of "what about" were about Rene. But the bulk of that song was definitely about James Debarge. James said himself that he put her through a lot of stuff during their relationship. From his drugs abuse to him being suicidal. Hell even Todd bridges said that James did her wrong. And Janet is still having to deal with the remnants of that past relationship because every few years the Jackson/Debarge baby rumors pop up. Mostly due to the Debarges.

I remember not likely VR at first because it was like a complete 180 from the Janet album. It was so dark to me. I had grown so used to that happy go lucky Janet. And I could tell by looking at her that she was different. I saw someone suggest that her depression was fake but I definitely don't think it was. I remember watching The Velvet Rope Concert tour. There was a part at the end where Janet was introducing General Colin Powell and you could literally see the sadness in her eyes. It looked like she wanted to cry. I always remember that and thinking how hard that must have been to go out and perform in front of thousands of people(which became millions once it aired on HBO) when she was clearly feeling like shit. It made me respect her so much more. People think that because Janet grew up rich and famous that her life was easy....clearly it wasn't. Having money and fame create more problems. Add to that being a Jackson....
BlackCat1985
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Reply #50 posted 10/13/17 5:44am

Musicslave

StrangeButTrue said:

Empty is an eerie premonition of a song really when you consider the prevalence of online dating and cell phones in modern times for a cut from 97 with almost trap beats (more leaning towards uk drum n bass). One of her more poignant tracks up there with Truth, Again or State of the World.

-

"Empty" was my favorite from this album. I thought it was sonically and strangely brilliant. I feel like its one of her most innovative sounds from her diverse catalog.

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Reply #51 posted 10/13/17 5:47am

Musicslave

206Michelle said:

Musicslave said:

-

I had this tune in mind when I mentioned borrowing on "Control"....

-

-

Keep in mind that Jimmy Jam was the Pop music lover growing up. Terry indoctrinated him into the Funk later. cool

Yeah, "Let's Wait Awhile" (from Control) has the same exact chords as "Daisy Jane"! (And I don't think I've heard "Daisy Jane" before now, either. Nevertheless, the two songs have a striking resemblance.)

[Edited 10/12/17 20:15pm]

-

I can't remember how long ago it was when I first discovered this song from America. But I do recall having a brief moment of sighs thinking....Damn, "Let's Wait Awhile" too? I do appreciate how they used the beginning chords and then take it somewhere different with their own melody. Interporlation at it's finest. This is the advantage that producers have when they can actually play their own instruments.

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Reply #52 posted 10/13/17 9:29am

namepeace

alphastreet said:

namepeace said:


So did Prince. He lifted straight from Jimi Hendrix and Soul II Soul on Graffiti Bridge, which had a very New Jack-feel in some spots.

The main point I made was, and remains, that J&T were really good at it.

I like prince doing new jack, but can't decide if I like the style or look more from that era smile

When did he lift from soul 2 soul? I didn't catch that right away


The chorus in "Round and Round" lifts very briefly from "Keep On Movin'".

Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #53 posted 10/14/17 4:25pm

206Michelle

When I listened to this album a lot, 15+ years ago or so, I remember these being my favourite tracks on the album (in no particular order). I would put all of 3 (or 4 if Special and Can't Be Stopped are separated) of these songs on a top 5 list of favourite tracks from the VR.

- Together Again - I love the melody and upbeat vibe of the song. The chorus is so memorable.

- Special/Can't Be Stopped - Her vocals are great and I love the uplifting messages

- Anything - The melody is beautiful and I love the various sound effects.

Live 4 Love ~ Love is God, God is love, Girls and boys love God above
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Reply #54 posted 10/14/17 4:29pm

206Michelle

Musicslave said:

StrangeButTrue said:

Empty is an eerie premonition of a song really when you consider the prevalence of online dating and cell phones in modern times for a cut from 97 with almost trap beats (more leaning towards uk drum n bass). One of her more poignant tracks up there with Truth, Again or State of the World.

-

"Empty" was my favorite from this album. I thought it was sonically and strangely brilliant. I feel like its one of her most innovative sounds from her diverse catalog.

I like "Empty." It's not one of my favourites on the album, but I love your description of it as "sonically and strangely brilliant," which I think it a perfect description of the song. And I agree with you that "Empty" is very innovative sounding; it still sounds very fresh listening to it today.

Live 4 Love ~ Love is God, God is love, Girls and boys love God above
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Reply #55 posted 10/14/17 6:32pm

TrivialPursuit

206Michelle said:

Musicslave said:

-

"Empty" was my favorite from this album. I thought it was sonically and strangely brilliant. I feel like its one of her most innovative sounds from her diverse catalog.

I like "Empty." It's not one of my favourites on the album, but I love your description of it as "sonically and strangely brilliant," which I think it a perfect description of the song. And I agree with you that "Empty" is very innovative sounding; it still sounds very fresh listening to it today.


"Empty" was definitely one of the worst songs on the album for me. I skipped past it all the time. That shuffling card noise just annoyed the fuck out of me. However, over the years, I don't skip past it nearly as much. In fact, I had my Echo play TVR the other day and just let the whole thing play through. Sonically, it was one of the most interesting tracks Janet had ever produced with Jam and Lewis.

I have to agree that it's incredibly fresh sounding today. So many wannabes are trying to be innovative and creative in their Garageband efforts, and twenty-years ago Jam & Lewis were making stuff that we hadn't heard before. It's why I've often said that Unbreakable is The Velvet Rope's sister. The former is as interesting and different for Janet as TVR was during its time.

I'd agree, Michelle, "sonically and strangely brilliant". That should be on a motherfuckin' poster!

"Despite everything, no 1 can dictate who u r 2 other people." - Prince |
http://bit.ly/unboxingprince
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Reply #56 posted 10/14/17 6:33pm

TrivialPursuit

And speaking of lifting tunes and melodies, "Together Again"'s melody is almost the same as some video game. I'm too strung out on ice cream right now to look it up, but it's funny to hear.

"Despite everything, no 1 can dictate who u r 2 other people." - Prince |
http://bit.ly/unboxingprince
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Reply #57 posted 10/14/17 8:56pm

alphastreet

I think it was sonic or legend of Zelda

I thought it sounded like the theme for full house or lady lovely locks (80s cartoon) though when I first heard it
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Reply #58 posted 10/14/17 8:58pm

alphastreet

It would be so awesome if Janet performed empty on this tour and worked with the led screens or brought 3D images to the stage

Or threw in free xone to speak to social issues

It would add to vr relevance today and add further classic touch to it
[Edited 10/14/17 21:00pm]
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Reply #59 posted 10/15/17 1:16pm

206Michelle

alphastreet said:

I think it was sonic or legend of Zelda I thought it sounded like the theme for full house or lady lovely locks (80s cartoon) though when I first heard it

I used to play Sonic Racing on Sega with my neighbors. If I recall correctly, the song that sounds like Together Again might be "Diamond in the Sky": https://youtu.be/zex_DZcEn4o.

Live 4 Love ~ Love is God, God is love, Girls and boys love God above
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